I'm building a new Laravel 8 application and given the reactivity features available with Livewire package, that essentially turn a backend developer into a full-stack developer (no advanced Javascript knowledge needed), I don't use any POST actions or request handling logic in my scripts. Every CRUD operation is handled with modal windows and AJAX requests. So my question is: Are there some drawbacks in this approach? Are there some limitation that will emerge in the future from the fact that my scripts don't directly handle HTTP request?
Thanks for your opinions.
FYI I'm not familiar with Laravel or Livewire. I'll use the term "platform" below as a general word to encapsulate technologies and libraries, etc, such as what you describe.
Platforms tend to focus on the high-value scenarios that most people need - so as long as what you need the platform to do aligns with what it can do, you're fine (e.g. simple CRUD). But, if you need to do something that pushes the boundaries of what the platform can do then you'll run into issues: it may not be possible; it's possible but really inefficient / a pig to work on; distorts your architecture and decision making.
Platforms like this are good in that they hide complexity, which is great until you need to access it and look under the hood. This applies to everything from debugging to developing features using approaches that the platform / platform designers haven't allowed for.
As a new developer, learning how to do things "the long way" (e.g. hand-code AJAX calls) is great as a learning experience. By doing that you can better appreciate how platforms like the ones you mention work - because you understand the underlying principles. So, a disadvantage is that new developers won't get that experience through working on this solution - they'll have to do that as a side project (which is not "evil", but it is a consideration).
All,
I'm currently revamping an ancient IVR written using Classic ASP with VXML 2.0. Believe me, it was a mess, largely due to the mixing of routing logic between the ASP code and the VXML logic, featuring multiple postbacks a la ASP.NET. Not fun to debug.
So we're starting fresh with MVC 3 and Razor and so far so good. I've succeeded in moving pretty much all the processing logic to the controller and just letting most of the VXML be just voicing a prompt and waiting for a DTMF reply.
But, looking at a lot of sample VXML code, it's beginning to look like it might actually be simpler to do basic routing using multiple on a page and VXML's built-in DTMF processing and . More complex decision-making and database/server access would call the controller as it does now.
I'm torn between the desire to be strict about where the logic is, versus what might actually be simpler code. My VXML chops are not terribly advanced (I know enough to be dangerous), so I'm soliciting input. Have others used multiple forms on a page? Better or worse?
Thanks
Jim Stanley
Blackboard Connect Inc.
Choosing to use simple VoiceXML and moving the logic server side is a fairly common practice. Pros/Cons below.
Server-side logic
Often difficult to get retry counters to perform the way you want if you are also performing input validation (valid for grammar, but not for host or other validation logic)
Better programming language/toolkits for making logical descriptions (I'm not a fan of JavaScript, but even if you like JavaScript, you tend to have to create a lot of forms to get the flow control you want).
Usually easier to debug. Step through logical decisions and access to logging tools.
Usually easier to create reusable components that use parameters to alter component behavior.
Client side logic
Usually more scalable. VoiceXML browsers tend to use a large amount of their resources compiling and processing pages. One larger page will typically do better than a variety of smaller pages. However, platforms vary significantly and your size may make this negligible.
Better chance of using static pages. Many platforms have highly optimized caches (more than just fetched data). Like above may only matter if you have 100s of ports per device or 1000s of ports hitting a server.
Mixing and matching isn't bad until somebody requests some sort of global behavior change. You may be making the change in multiple places. Debugging techniques will also vary so it may complicate your support paths (e.g. looking in browser logs versus server logs to see what happened on a call).
Our current framework currently uses a mix of server and client. All our logic is in the VoiceXML, and the server is used for state saving and generating recognition components. Unfortunately as all our logic is in the voicexml, it makes it harder to unit test.
Rather than creating a large voicexml page that subdialogs to each question and all the routing done on the clientside, postback to the server after each collection, then work out where to go now. Obviously this has it's pros/cons as Jim pointed out, but the hope is to abstract some of the IVR/callflow from the VoiceXML and reduce the dependency on skilling up developers in VoiceXML.
I'm looking at redeveloping using MVC3, creating different views based on base IVR functions, which can then be modified based on the hosting VoiceXML platform:
Recognition
Prompts
Transfer
CTI Get/Set
Disconnect
What I'm still working out is how to create reusable components within the MVC. Whether to create something we subdialog to and return back the result (similar to how we currently do it), or redirect to a generic controller, and then redirect to the "Completed" action once the controller is done.
Jim Rush provides a pretty good overview of the pros and cons of server side versus client side logic and is pretty consistent with my discussion on this topic in my blog post "Client-side versus Server-side Development of VoiceXML Applications". I believe the pros of putting the logic on the server far outweigh putting it on the client. The VoiceXML User Group is moving towards removing most of this logic from VoiceXML in version 3.0 and suggesting using a new standard called State Chart XML (SCXML) to handle control of the voice application. I have started an open source project to make it easier to develop VoiceXML applications using ASP.NET MVC 3.0 which can be found on CodePlex and is called VoiceModel. There is an example application in this project which will demonstrate a method for keeping the logic server side, which I believe greatly improves reuse of voice objects.
I'm struggling with implementing a RESTful API that should return JSON response and should sustain very high load.
The highest load will be generated by 'read' part of the API and very little load will be generated by 'write' part of the API.
My first attempt was to write whole API using nodejs. I almost did it but faced very high duplication of models and logic between javascript and ruby, because the API is a part of a bigger system. I tried moving all logic into backend (mySql), but that idea turned out even more uglier.
My second attempt is to write the API in Ruby ecosystem in order to share models/logic and tests between all parts of the system.
I tried using Cramp and Goliath alone, but all that async stuff really complicated API implementation. I only need to have 2 read urls async because they generate the highest load and by going async all the way I was forced to implement the rest of API in async fashion, which didn't add any value.
My current attempt is to go hybrid: use Thin/Sinatra/Cramp cocktail. I'm instantiating Thin rack handle right in Ruby code and using rack builder I'm splitting API between Sinatra, which is taking sync implementation, and Cramp, which is implementing 2 urls in async way.
Is this is a good way to go? Or having Sinatra and Cramp in one web server (Thin) will get me even in more trouble by some reason?
update:
I'm trying solution with sole Sinatra mixed with rack/fiber_pool and em_mysql2. Seems I'm killing two goals - making API async with sync implementation. But I'm suffering from a bug which I think will be fixed quite soon.
Were will be any gotchas going this way?
I don't think it's a good idea to have sync (sinatra) and async (cramp) apps within the same thin process. If the sync part is relatively simple, I'd suggest implementing that in Cramp. A little biased here as I authored Cramp :)
In case you didn't know, Cramp has out of box support for AR/fiber pool - https://github.com/lifo/cramp/blob/master/examples/fibers/long_ar_query.ru
If you decide to use Cramp, I'm happy to help out with any issues as I've been working a lot on cramp recently and am quite pumped up! Just throw me an email!
I'm curious what async stuff you ran into with Goliath? In the common case there should be no async code visible to the end developer.
Is there something we can do better to make this less visible to the end user?
I've done some web-based projects, and most of the difficulties I've met with (questions, confusions) could be figured out with help. But I still have an important question, even after asking some experienced developers: When functionality can be implemented with both server-side code and client-side scripting (JavaScript), which one should be preferred?
A simple example:
To render a dynamic html page, I can format the page in server-side code (PHP, python) and use Ajax to fetch the formatted page and render it directly (more logic on server-side, less on client-side).
I can also use Ajax to fetch the data (not formatted, JSON) and use client-side scripting to format the page and render it with more processing (the server gets the data from a DB or other source, and returns it to the client with JSON or XML. More logic on client-side and less on server).
So how can I decide which one is better? Which one offers better performance? Why? Which one is more user-friendly?
With browsers' JS engines evolving, JS can be interpreted in less time, so should I prefer client-side scripting?
On the other hand, with hardware evolving, server performance is growing and the cost of sever-side logic will decrease, so should I prefer server-side scripting?
EDIT:
With the answers, I want to give a brief summary.
Pros of client-side logic:
Better user experience (faster).
Less network bandwidth (lower cost).
Increased scalability (reduced server load).
Pros of server-side logic:
Security issues.
Better availability and accessibility (mobile devices and old browsers).
Better SEO.
Easily expandable (can add more servers, but can't make the browser faster).
It seems that we need to balance these two approaches when facing a specific scenario. But how? What's the best practice?
I will use client-side logic except in the following conditions:
Security critical.
Special groups (JavaScript disabled, mobile devices, and others).
In many cases, I'm afraid the best answer is both.
As Ricebowl stated, never trust the client. However, I feel that it's almost always a problem if you do trust the client. If your application is worth writing, it's worth properly securing. If anyone can break it by writing their own client and passing data you don't expect, that's a bad thing. For that reason, you need to validate on the server.
Unfortunately if you validate everything on the server, that often leaves the user with a poor user experience. They may fill out a form only to find that a number of things they entered are incorrect. This may have worked for "Internet 1.0", but people's expectations are higher on today's Internet.
This potentially leaves you writing quite a bit of redundant code, and maintaining it in two or more places (some of the definitions such as maximum lengths also need to be maintained in the data tier). For reasonably large applications, I tend to solve this issue using code generation. Personally I use a UML modeling tool (Sparx System's Enterprise Architect) to model the "input rules" of the system, then make use of partial classes (I'm usually working in .NET) to code generate the validation logic. You can achieve a similar thing by coding your rules in a format such as XML and deriving a number of checks from that XML file (input length, input mask, etc.) on both the client and server tier.
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but if you want to do it right, you need to enforce rules on both tiers.
I tend to prefer server-side logic. My reasons are fairly simple:
I don't trust the client; this may or not be a true problem, but it's habitual
Server-side reduces the volume per transaction (though it does increase the number of transactions)
Server-side means that I can be fairly sure about what logic is taking place (I don't have to worry about the Javascript engine available to the client's browser)
There are probably more -and better- reasons, but these are the ones at the top of my mind right now. If I think of more I'll add them, or up-vote those that come up with them before I do.
Edited, valya comments that using client-side logic (using Ajax/JSON) allows for the (easier) creation of an API. This may well be true, but I can only half-agree (which is why I've not up-voted that answer yet).
My notion of server-side logic is to that which retrieves the data, and organises it; if I've got this right the logic is the 'controller' (C in MVC). And this is then passed to the 'view.' I tend to use the controller to get the data, and then the 'view' deals with presenting it to the user/client. So I don't see that client/server distinctions are necessarily relevant to the argument of creating an API, basically: horses for courses. :)
...also, as a hobbyist, I recognise that I may have a slightly twisted usage of MVC, so I'm willing to stand corrected on that point. But I still keep the presentation separate from the logic. And that separation is the plus point so far as APIs go.
I generally implement as much as reasonable client-side. The only exceptions that would make me go server-side would be to resolve the following:
Trust issues
Anyone is capable of debugging JavaScript and reading password's, etc. No-brainer here.
Performance issues
JavaScript engines are evolving fast so this is becoming less of an issue, but we're still in an IE-dominated world, so things will slow down when you deal with large sets of data.
Language issues
JavaScript is weakly-typed language and it makes a lot of assumptions of your code. This can cause you to employ spooky workarounds in order to get things working the way they should on certain browsers. I avoid this type of thing like the plague.
From your question, it sounds like you're simply trying to load values into a form. Barring any of the issues above, you have 3 options:
Pure client-side
The disadvantage is that your users' loading time would double (one load for the blank form, another load for the data). However, subsequent updates to the form would not require a refresh of the page. Users will like this if there will be a lot of data fetching from the server loading into the same form.
Pure server-side
The advantage is that your page would load with the data. However, subsequent updates to the data would require refreshes to all/significant portions of the page.
Server-client hybrid
You would have the best of both worlds, however you would need to create two data extraction points, causing your code to bloat slightly.
There are trade-offs with each option so you will have to weigh them and decide which one offers you the most benefit.
One consideration I have not heard mentioned was network bandwidth. To give a specific example, an app I was involved with was all done server-side and resulted in 200Mb web page being sent to the client (it was impossible to do less without major major re-design of a bunch of apps); resulting in 2-5 minute page load time.
When we re-implemented this by sending the JSON-encoded data from the server and have local JS generate the page, the main benefit was that the data sent shrunk to 20Mb, resulting in:
HTTP response size: 200Mb+ => 20Mb+ (with corresponding bandwidth savings!)
Time to load the page: 2-5mins => 20 secs (10-15 of which are taken up by DB query that was optimized to hell an further).
IE process size: 200MB+ => 80MB+
Mind you, the last 2 points were mainly due to the fact that server side had to use crappy tables-within-tables tree implementation, whereas going to client side allowed us to redesign the view layer to use much more lightweight page. But my main point was network bandwidth savings.
I'd like to give my two cents on this subject.
I'm generally in favor of the server-side approach, and here is why.
More SEO friendly. Google cannot execute Javascript, therefor all that content will be invisible to search engines
Performance is more controllable. User experience is always variable with SOA due to the fact that you're relying almost entirely on the users browser and machine to render things. Even though your server might be performing well, a user with a slow machine will think your site is the culprit.
Arguably, the server-side approach is more easily maintained and readable.
I've written several systems using both approaches, and in my experience, server-side is the way. However, that's not to say I don't use AJAX. All of the modern systems I've built incorporate both components.
Hope this helps.
I built a RESTful web application where all CRUD functionalities are available in the absence of JavaScript, in other words, all AJAX effects are strictly progressive enhancements.
I believe with enough dedication, most web applications can be designed this way, thus eroding many of the server logic vs client logic "differences", such as security, expandability, raised in your question because in both cases, the request is routed to the same controller, of which the business logic is all the same until the last mile, where JSON/XML, instead of the full page HTML, is returned for those XHR.
Only in few cases where the AJAXified application is so vastly more advanced than its static counterpart, GMail being the best example coming to my mind, then one needs to create two versions and separate them completely (Kudos to Google!).
I know this post is old, but I wanted to comment.
In my experience, the best approach is using a combination of client-side and server-side. Yes, Angular JS and similar frameworks are popular now and they've made it easier to develop web applications that are light weight, have improved performance, and work on most web servers. BUT, the major requirement in enterprise applications is displaying report data which can encompass 500+ records on one page. With pages that return large lists of data, Users often want functionality that will make this huge list easy to filter, search, and perform other interactive features. Because IE 11 and earlier IE browsers are are the "browser of choice"at most companies, you have to be aware that these browsers still have compatibility issues using modern JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3. Often, the requirement is to make a site or application compatible on all browsers. This requires adding shivs or using prototypes which, with the code included to create a client-side application, adds to page load on the browser.
All of this will reduce performance and can cause the dreaded IE error "A script on this page is causing Internet Explorer to run slowly" forcing the User to choose if they want to continue running the script or not...creating bad User experiences.
Determine the complexity of the application and what the user wants now and could want in the future based on their preferences in their existing applications. If this is a simple site or app with little-to-medium data, use JavaScript Framework. But, if they want to incorporate accessibility; SEO; or need to display large amounts of data, use server-side code to render data and client-side code sparingly. In both cases, use a tool like Fiddler or Chrome Developer tools to check page load and response times and use best practices to optimize code.
Checkout MVC apps developed with ASP.NET Core.
At this stage the client side technology is leading the way, with the advent of many client side libraries like Backbone, Knockout, Spine and then with addition of client side templates like JSrender , mustache etc, client side development has become much easy.
so, If my requirement is to go for interactive app, I will surely go for client side.
In case you have more static html content then yes go for server side.
I did some experiments using both, I must say Server side is comparatively easier to implement then client side.
As far as performance is concerned. Read this you will understand server side performance scores.
http://engineering.twitter.com/2012/05/improving-performance-on-twittercom.html
I think the second variant is better. For example, If you implement something like 'skins' later, you will thank yourself for not formatting html on server :)
It also keeps a difference between view and controller. Ajax data is often produced by controller, so let it just return data, not html.
If you're going to create an API later, you'll need to make a very few changes in your code
Also, 'Naked' data is more cachable than HTML, i think. For example, if you add some style to links, you'll need to reformat all html.. or add one line to your js. And it isn't as big as html (in bytes).
But If many heavy scripts are needed to format data, It isn't to cool ask users' browsers to format it.
As long as you don't need to send a lot of data to the client to allow it to do the work, client side will give you a more scalable system, as you are distrubuting the load to the clients rather than hammering your server to do everything.
On the flip side, if you need to process a lot of data to produce a tiny amount of html to send to the client, or if optimisations can be made to use the server's work to support many clients at once (e.g. process the data once and send the resulting html to all the clients), then it may be more efficient use of resources to do the work on ther server.
If you do it in Ajax :
You'll have to consider accessibility issues (search about web accessibility in google) for disabled people, but also for old browsers, those who doesn't have JavaScript, bots (like google bot), etc.
You'll have to flirt with "progressive enhancement" wich is not simple to do if you never worked a lot with JavaScript. In short, you'll have to make your app work with old browsers and those that doesn't have JavaScript (some mobile for example) or if it's disable.
But if time and money is not an issue, I'd go with progressive enhancement.
But also consider the "Back button". I hate it when I'm browsing a 100% AJAX website that renders your back button useless.
Good luck!
2018 answer, with the existence of Node.js
Since Node.js allows you to deploy Javascript logic on the server, you can now re-use the validation on both server and client side.
Make sure you setup or restructure the data so that you can re-use the validation without changing any code.