I'm building a new Laravel 8 application and given the reactivity features available with Livewire package, that essentially turn a backend developer into a full-stack developer (no advanced Javascript knowledge needed), I don't use any POST actions or request handling logic in my scripts. Every CRUD operation is handled with modal windows and AJAX requests. So my question is: Are there some drawbacks in this approach? Are there some limitation that will emerge in the future from the fact that my scripts don't directly handle HTTP request?
Thanks for your opinions.
FYI I'm not familiar with Laravel or Livewire. I'll use the term "platform" below as a general word to encapsulate technologies and libraries, etc, such as what you describe.
Platforms tend to focus on the high-value scenarios that most people need - so as long as what you need the platform to do aligns with what it can do, you're fine (e.g. simple CRUD). But, if you need to do something that pushes the boundaries of what the platform can do then you'll run into issues: it may not be possible; it's possible but really inefficient / a pig to work on; distorts your architecture and decision making.
Platforms like this are good in that they hide complexity, which is great until you need to access it and look under the hood. This applies to everything from debugging to developing features using approaches that the platform / platform designers haven't allowed for.
As a new developer, learning how to do things "the long way" (e.g. hand-code AJAX calls) is great as a learning experience. By doing that you can better appreciate how platforms like the ones you mention work - because you understand the underlying principles. So, a disadvantage is that new developers won't get that experience through working on this solution - they'll have to do that as a side project (which is not "evil", but it is a consideration).
I'm new to MVC structure and feel it's harder to get things done because it's a new way of doing things. Are there anybody who has experience of MVC vs. pages way of doing things. Is the MVC way of doing it the holy graal now or is there still value doing ordinary object-oriented development (or even procedural pages webdev)? Is MVC a fad?
A brief list of pros and cons for MVC
Pros
Testablily
Separation of Concerns - Promotes decoupling between major components
Helps you focus on one task/area at a time
Natural fit for Web and desktop interactions
Fits well with other design patterns, Single Responsibility
Principle etc.
Cons
Can require more code and effort
Can reduce clarity for simple pages (in these cases try to continue using simple pages)
Will take more learning
MVC is much more than a fad. It is a very pragmatic way of separating multiple concerns of a web application into manageable and reusable sections. Granted it does take some getting used to at first, but with some conscious effort at breaking your application up the MVC-style can be very rewarding. Often solutions are more succinct as they only need to concentrate on a single operation or task.
It is not a new idea either. It has been around in one form or another since 1979 (#Sarfraz Ahmed's link) and has been used in various web and desktop platforms.
If you are finding yourself having trouble using an MVC-style implementation then try to break it down into the individual parts or actions that are being used, and their corresponding area, model view or controller. As you probably expected, this will come easier over time.
Good luck
To MVC or not is mostly up to the needs of your project. Sometimes I have simple stuff that doesn't need the Model, but can still benefit from a controller/view arrangement. In those cases I might go with a micro-framework ( for PHP that would be limonade ) or even less. Still the majority of my web projects are MVC applications.
I started making websites around 1996-1997, everything was kind of new and there was no sense to what might be a good or bad idea in the long run. Around 2005 when I left the military and got back into web development it wasn't that enjoyable to fight through rat's nest of organically designed code. So When I was introduced to Ruby on Rails and the concept of MVC, I instantly recognized for myself that this was a game changer.
As MVC is increasingly adopted in more and more web projects, its paving the way for the next generations of developer's lives to be a little easier and more productive by providing common ground across companies and projects. Yes MVC is a little tough to swallow when going from the upfront simplicity of cooperative script to page projects but anything worth doing isn't going to be that easy right?
With all that said, if you get a good grounding in MVC in one language, it can provide a mental common ground for you to learn other languages. As for how long MVC will last as a dominant framework design pattern, the software industry is like a desert, everyday things change and great ideas become eclipsed by better ones (XHR for websockets, embedded objects for native audio/video tags) but I think whatever finally dethrones MVC will be somewhat similar because it doesn't really matter how great an idea is if only a very small portion of people understand it.
If we speak about ASP.NET MVC, the framework page itself has a discussion on this point:
The ASP.NET MVC framework offers the following advantages:
It makes it easier to manage complexity by dividing an application into the model, the view, and the controller.
It does not use view state or server-based forms. This makes the MVC framework ideal for developers who want full control over the behavior of an application.
It uses a Front Controller pattern that processes Web application requests through a single controller. This enables you to design an application that supports a rich routing infrastructure. For more information, see Front Controller on the MSDN Web site.
It provides better support for test-driven development (TDD).
It works well for Web applications that are supported by large teams of developers and Web designers who need a high degree of control over the application behavior.
The Web Forms-based framework offers the following advantages:
It supports an event model that preserves state over HTTP, which benefits line-of-business Web application development. The Web Forms-based application provides dozens of events that are supported in hundreds of server controls.
It uses a Page Controller pattern that adds functionality to individual pages. For more information, see Page Controller on the MSDN Web site.
It uses view state or server-based forms, which can make managing state information easier.
It works well for small teams of Web developers and designers who want to take advantage of the large number of components available for rapid application development.
In general, it is less complex for application development, because the components (the Page class, controls, and so on) are tightly integrated and usually require less code than the MVC model.
I think this exhaustive list provides answers to all your questions about MVC.
Since you have not mentioned language and if you mean mvc in php then this is also a great
resource for those new to mvc:
http://phpro.org/tutorials/Model-View-Controller-MVC.html
This is from a ASP.NET WinForms -> ASP.NET MVC perspective, however, ASP.NET MVC was the first time I heard of the MVC pattern (noob programmer) and I think if I discovered MVC in another language before ASP.NET MVC, I would've left ASP.NET/C# and went to that framework.
Learning and using MVC has made me a better programmer. I've always felt ASP.NET placed a transparent barrier between myself and the code (HTML or C#).
I've always wanted to break through that barrier, and MVC gives me complete control of everything in my app while emphasizing separation of concerns (something that makes coding infinitely more fun and less of a headache).
For me, MVC was the right choice.
The big advantage of MVC (in general) is that you are far less likely to create monolithic applications. You have a single request-act-response pathway, vs. something like ASP.NET webforms or JSF (although JSF is not as bad as webforms). It's very easy for a small site in webforms to become a big unmanageable tangled mess in webforms, then you have to start whipping out the custom controls and your team is lost. If you understand how the web work, MVC is easy ... although it is then in your hands to manage state.
After struggling with MVC for some time, I have to said that I now much prefer MVP (Model-view-presenter) architecture. Separation of concerns, decoupling and asynchronization are much easier to achieve with MVP than MVC, IMHO, because each MVC implementation doesn't split the concepts the same way, each controller doesn't handle the same things.
I've done some web-based projects, and most of the difficulties I've met with (questions, confusions) could be figured out with help. But I still have an important question, even after asking some experienced developers: When functionality can be implemented with both server-side code and client-side scripting (JavaScript), which one should be preferred?
A simple example:
To render a dynamic html page, I can format the page in server-side code (PHP, python) and use Ajax to fetch the formatted page and render it directly (more logic on server-side, less on client-side).
I can also use Ajax to fetch the data (not formatted, JSON) and use client-side scripting to format the page and render it with more processing (the server gets the data from a DB or other source, and returns it to the client with JSON or XML. More logic on client-side and less on server).
So how can I decide which one is better? Which one offers better performance? Why? Which one is more user-friendly?
With browsers' JS engines evolving, JS can be interpreted in less time, so should I prefer client-side scripting?
On the other hand, with hardware evolving, server performance is growing and the cost of sever-side logic will decrease, so should I prefer server-side scripting?
EDIT:
With the answers, I want to give a brief summary.
Pros of client-side logic:
Better user experience (faster).
Less network bandwidth (lower cost).
Increased scalability (reduced server load).
Pros of server-side logic:
Security issues.
Better availability and accessibility (mobile devices and old browsers).
Better SEO.
Easily expandable (can add more servers, but can't make the browser faster).
It seems that we need to balance these two approaches when facing a specific scenario. But how? What's the best practice?
I will use client-side logic except in the following conditions:
Security critical.
Special groups (JavaScript disabled, mobile devices, and others).
In many cases, I'm afraid the best answer is both.
As Ricebowl stated, never trust the client. However, I feel that it's almost always a problem if you do trust the client. If your application is worth writing, it's worth properly securing. If anyone can break it by writing their own client and passing data you don't expect, that's a bad thing. For that reason, you need to validate on the server.
Unfortunately if you validate everything on the server, that often leaves the user with a poor user experience. They may fill out a form only to find that a number of things they entered are incorrect. This may have worked for "Internet 1.0", but people's expectations are higher on today's Internet.
This potentially leaves you writing quite a bit of redundant code, and maintaining it in two or more places (some of the definitions such as maximum lengths also need to be maintained in the data tier). For reasonably large applications, I tend to solve this issue using code generation. Personally I use a UML modeling tool (Sparx System's Enterprise Architect) to model the "input rules" of the system, then make use of partial classes (I'm usually working in .NET) to code generate the validation logic. You can achieve a similar thing by coding your rules in a format such as XML and deriving a number of checks from that XML file (input length, input mask, etc.) on both the client and server tier.
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but if you want to do it right, you need to enforce rules on both tiers.
I tend to prefer server-side logic. My reasons are fairly simple:
I don't trust the client; this may or not be a true problem, but it's habitual
Server-side reduces the volume per transaction (though it does increase the number of transactions)
Server-side means that I can be fairly sure about what logic is taking place (I don't have to worry about the Javascript engine available to the client's browser)
There are probably more -and better- reasons, but these are the ones at the top of my mind right now. If I think of more I'll add them, or up-vote those that come up with them before I do.
Edited, valya comments that using client-side logic (using Ajax/JSON) allows for the (easier) creation of an API. This may well be true, but I can only half-agree (which is why I've not up-voted that answer yet).
My notion of server-side logic is to that which retrieves the data, and organises it; if I've got this right the logic is the 'controller' (C in MVC). And this is then passed to the 'view.' I tend to use the controller to get the data, and then the 'view' deals with presenting it to the user/client. So I don't see that client/server distinctions are necessarily relevant to the argument of creating an API, basically: horses for courses. :)
...also, as a hobbyist, I recognise that I may have a slightly twisted usage of MVC, so I'm willing to stand corrected on that point. But I still keep the presentation separate from the logic. And that separation is the plus point so far as APIs go.
I generally implement as much as reasonable client-side. The only exceptions that would make me go server-side would be to resolve the following:
Trust issues
Anyone is capable of debugging JavaScript and reading password's, etc. No-brainer here.
Performance issues
JavaScript engines are evolving fast so this is becoming less of an issue, but we're still in an IE-dominated world, so things will slow down when you deal with large sets of data.
Language issues
JavaScript is weakly-typed language and it makes a lot of assumptions of your code. This can cause you to employ spooky workarounds in order to get things working the way they should on certain browsers. I avoid this type of thing like the plague.
From your question, it sounds like you're simply trying to load values into a form. Barring any of the issues above, you have 3 options:
Pure client-side
The disadvantage is that your users' loading time would double (one load for the blank form, another load for the data). However, subsequent updates to the form would not require a refresh of the page. Users will like this if there will be a lot of data fetching from the server loading into the same form.
Pure server-side
The advantage is that your page would load with the data. However, subsequent updates to the data would require refreshes to all/significant portions of the page.
Server-client hybrid
You would have the best of both worlds, however you would need to create two data extraction points, causing your code to bloat slightly.
There are trade-offs with each option so you will have to weigh them and decide which one offers you the most benefit.
One consideration I have not heard mentioned was network bandwidth. To give a specific example, an app I was involved with was all done server-side and resulted in 200Mb web page being sent to the client (it was impossible to do less without major major re-design of a bunch of apps); resulting in 2-5 minute page load time.
When we re-implemented this by sending the JSON-encoded data from the server and have local JS generate the page, the main benefit was that the data sent shrunk to 20Mb, resulting in:
HTTP response size: 200Mb+ => 20Mb+ (with corresponding bandwidth savings!)
Time to load the page: 2-5mins => 20 secs (10-15 of which are taken up by DB query that was optimized to hell an further).
IE process size: 200MB+ => 80MB+
Mind you, the last 2 points were mainly due to the fact that server side had to use crappy tables-within-tables tree implementation, whereas going to client side allowed us to redesign the view layer to use much more lightweight page. But my main point was network bandwidth savings.
I'd like to give my two cents on this subject.
I'm generally in favor of the server-side approach, and here is why.
More SEO friendly. Google cannot execute Javascript, therefor all that content will be invisible to search engines
Performance is more controllable. User experience is always variable with SOA due to the fact that you're relying almost entirely on the users browser and machine to render things. Even though your server might be performing well, a user with a slow machine will think your site is the culprit.
Arguably, the server-side approach is more easily maintained and readable.
I've written several systems using both approaches, and in my experience, server-side is the way. However, that's not to say I don't use AJAX. All of the modern systems I've built incorporate both components.
Hope this helps.
I built a RESTful web application where all CRUD functionalities are available in the absence of JavaScript, in other words, all AJAX effects are strictly progressive enhancements.
I believe with enough dedication, most web applications can be designed this way, thus eroding many of the server logic vs client logic "differences", such as security, expandability, raised in your question because in both cases, the request is routed to the same controller, of which the business logic is all the same until the last mile, where JSON/XML, instead of the full page HTML, is returned for those XHR.
Only in few cases where the AJAXified application is so vastly more advanced than its static counterpart, GMail being the best example coming to my mind, then one needs to create two versions and separate them completely (Kudos to Google!).
I know this post is old, but I wanted to comment.
In my experience, the best approach is using a combination of client-side and server-side. Yes, Angular JS and similar frameworks are popular now and they've made it easier to develop web applications that are light weight, have improved performance, and work on most web servers. BUT, the major requirement in enterprise applications is displaying report data which can encompass 500+ records on one page. With pages that return large lists of data, Users often want functionality that will make this huge list easy to filter, search, and perform other interactive features. Because IE 11 and earlier IE browsers are are the "browser of choice"at most companies, you have to be aware that these browsers still have compatibility issues using modern JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3. Often, the requirement is to make a site or application compatible on all browsers. This requires adding shivs or using prototypes which, with the code included to create a client-side application, adds to page load on the browser.
All of this will reduce performance and can cause the dreaded IE error "A script on this page is causing Internet Explorer to run slowly" forcing the User to choose if they want to continue running the script or not...creating bad User experiences.
Determine the complexity of the application and what the user wants now and could want in the future based on their preferences in their existing applications. If this is a simple site or app with little-to-medium data, use JavaScript Framework. But, if they want to incorporate accessibility; SEO; or need to display large amounts of data, use server-side code to render data and client-side code sparingly. In both cases, use a tool like Fiddler or Chrome Developer tools to check page load and response times and use best practices to optimize code.
Checkout MVC apps developed with ASP.NET Core.
At this stage the client side technology is leading the way, with the advent of many client side libraries like Backbone, Knockout, Spine and then with addition of client side templates like JSrender , mustache etc, client side development has become much easy.
so, If my requirement is to go for interactive app, I will surely go for client side.
In case you have more static html content then yes go for server side.
I did some experiments using both, I must say Server side is comparatively easier to implement then client side.
As far as performance is concerned. Read this you will understand server side performance scores.
http://engineering.twitter.com/2012/05/improving-performance-on-twittercom.html
I think the second variant is better. For example, If you implement something like 'skins' later, you will thank yourself for not formatting html on server :)
It also keeps a difference between view and controller. Ajax data is often produced by controller, so let it just return data, not html.
If you're going to create an API later, you'll need to make a very few changes in your code
Also, 'Naked' data is more cachable than HTML, i think. For example, if you add some style to links, you'll need to reformat all html.. or add one line to your js. And it isn't as big as html (in bytes).
But If many heavy scripts are needed to format data, It isn't to cool ask users' browsers to format it.
As long as you don't need to send a lot of data to the client to allow it to do the work, client side will give you a more scalable system, as you are distrubuting the load to the clients rather than hammering your server to do everything.
On the flip side, if you need to process a lot of data to produce a tiny amount of html to send to the client, or if optimisations can be made to use the server's work to support many clients at once (e.g. process the data once and send the resulting html to all the clients), then it may be more efficient use of resources to do the work on ther server.
If you do it in Ajax :
You'll have to consider accessibility issues (search about web accessibility in google) for disabled people, but also for old browsers, those who doesn't have JavaScript, bots (like google bot), etc.
You'll have to flirt with "progressive enhancement" wich is not simple to do if you never worked a lot with JavaScript. In short, you'll have to make your app work with old browsers and those that doesn't have JavaScript (some mobile for example) or if it's disable.
But if time and money is not an issue, I'd go with progressive enhancement.
But also consider the "Back button". I hate it when I'm browsing a 100% AJAX website that renders your back button useless.
Good luck!
2018 answer, with the existence of Node.js
Since Node.js allows you to deploy Javascript logic on the server, you can now re-use the validation on both server and client side.
Make sure you setup or restructure the data so that you can re-use the validation without changing any code.
I'm starting to step into unfamiliar territory with regards to performance improvement and our RIA (Rich Internet Application) built with GWT. For those unfamiliar with GWT, essentially when deployed it's just pure JavaScript. We're interfacing with the server side using a REST-style XML web service via XMLHttpRequest.
Our XML is un-marshalled into JavaScript objects and used within the application to represent the data model behind the interface. When changes occur, the model is updated and marshalled back to XML and sent back to the server.
I've learned the number one rule of performance (in terms of user experience) is to make as few requests as possible. Obviously this brings up the possibility of caching. Caching is great for static data but things get tricky in a multi-user system where data on the server may be changing. Also, use of "Last-Modified" and "If-Modified-Since" requests don't quite do enough since we'd like to avoid unnecessary requests altogether.
I'm trying to figure out if caching data in the browser is even right for us before researching the approaches. I hope someone has tread this path before. I'm looking for similar approaches, lessons learned, things to avoid, etc.
I'm happy to provide more specific info if needed...
For GWT, if performance matters that much to you, you get better performance by sending all the data you need in a single request, instead of querying multiple small data. I would recommend against client-side data caching as there are lots of issues like keeping the data in sync with the database.
Besides, you already have a good advantage with GWT over traditional html apps. Unless you are dealing with special data (eg: does not become stale too quickly - implies mostly-read queries) I found out that there is no special need for caching. You are better off doing a service-layer caching, since most of the time should come of server-side processing.
If you can provide more details about the nature of the app, maybe some different conclusions can be taken.
I've been reading through a couple of questions on here and various articles on MVC and can see how it can even be applied to GUI event intensive applications like a paint app.
Can anyone cite a situation where MVC might be a bad thing and its use ill-advised?
EDIT: I'm specifically talking about GUI applications here!
I tried MVC in my network kernel driver. The patch was rejected.
I think you're looking at it kind of backwards. The point is not to see where you can apply a pattern like MVC, the point is to learn the patterns and recognize when the problem you are trying to solve can naturally be solved by applying the pattern. So if your problem space can be naturally divided into model, view and controller then it is a good candidate for MVC. If you can't easily see which parts of your design fall into the three categories, it may not be the appropriate pattern.
MVC makes sense for web applications.
In web applications, you process some data (on SA: writing questions, adding comments, changing user info), you have state (logged in user), you don't have many different pages, but a lot of different content to fit into those pages. One Question page vs. a million questions.
For making CMS, for example, MVC is useless. You don't have any models, no controllers, just a pages of text with decorations and menus. The problem is no longer processing data - the problem now is serving that text content properly.
Tho, CMS Admin would build on top of MVC just fine, it's just user part that wouldn't.
For web services, you'd better use REST which, I believe, is a distinct paradigm.
WebDAV application wouldn't benefit greatly from MVC, either.
The caveat on Ruby for Web programming is that Rails is better suited for building Web applications. I’ve seen many projects attempt to create a WebDAV server or a content management system CMS with Rails and fail miserably. While you can do a CMS in Rails, there are much more efficient technologies for the task, such as Drupal and Django. In fact, I’d say if you’re looking at a Java Portal development effort, you should evaluate Drupal and Django for the task instead.
Anything where you want to drop in 3rd party components will make it tough to work in the MVC pattern. A good example of this is a CMS.
Each component you get will have their "own" controller objects and you won't be able to share "control" of model -> ui passing.
I don't necessarily know that MVC is ever really a bad idea for a GUI app. But there are alternatives that are arguably better (and also arguably worse depending on whose opinion you're asking). The most common is MVP. See here for an explanation: Everything You Wanted To Know About MVC and MVP But Were Afraid To Ask.
Although I suppose it might be a bad idea to use MVC if you're using a framework or otherwise interacting with software that wasn't designed with MVC in mind.
In other words, it's a lot like comparing programming languages. There's usually not many tasks that one can say that one is better than the other for. It usually boils down to programmer preference, availability of libraries, and the team's experience.
MVC shouldn't be used in applications where performance is critical. I don't know if this still applys with the increase of computing power but one example is a call center application. If you can save .5 seconds per call entering and updating information those savings add up over time. To get the last bit of performance out of your app you should use a desktop app instead of a web app and have it talk directly to the database.
When is it a bad thing? Where ever there is another code-structure that would better fit your project.
There's countless projects where MVC wouldn't "fit", but I don't see how a list of them would be of any benefit..
If MVC fits, use it, if not, use something else..
MVC and ORM are a joke....they are only appropriate when your app is not a database app, or when you want to keep the app database agnostic. If you're using an RDBMS that supports stored procedures, then that's the only way to go. Stored procs are the preferred approach for experienced application developers. MVC and ORM are only promoted by companies trying to sell products or services related to those technologies (e.g. Microsoft trying to sell VS). Stop wasting your time learning Java and C#, focus instead on what really matters, Javascript and SQL.