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Brief Description
I have a college work where I have to implement a graph library (I'll have to give a presentation about this work later)
The basic idea is to write all the code of the data structures and their algorithms from scratch, using the tools provided by some programming language, like C/C++, Java, Python, doesn't really matter which one of them I'll pick at first.
But I should not use any built-in graph libraries in the language: the goal of the work is to make the students learn how these algorithms work. There are some test cases which my program will be later submitted to.
It is not really necessary but, if you wanna take a look, here is the homework assignment: http://pastebin.com/GdtvMTMR (I used Control-C Control-V plus google translate from a LaTeX text, this is why the formatting is poor).
The Question
So, my question is: which programming language would be more time efficient to implement this library?
It doesn't really matter if the language is functional, structured or object oriented. My priority is time efficiency and performance.
The better language is the one you know more.
But if you're looking for some performance, take a look at compiled languages with optimisations. Keep in mind that the code you write is the major component responsible in final performance, the language itself cant do miracles.
A more low level language give to you controls but requires deeply knowledge of the language and the machine you're running your code, so it's a tradeoff.
By a personal choose I would recommend C/C++ to implement a graph library. I've already done this in the past and I used vanilla ANSI C and the performance was awesome.
The one you feel more passionate about and feel more comfortable coding with.
This way you will rock your project.
Myself would pick Java.
First off, I'm aware that there are many questions related to this, but none of them seemed to help my specific situation. In particular, lua and python don't fit my needs as well as I could hope. It may be that no language with my requirements exists, but before coming to that conclusion it'd be nice to hear a few more opinions. :)
As you may have guessed, I need such a language for a game engine I'm trying to create. The purpose of this game engine is to provide a user with the basic tools for building a game, while still giving her the freedom of creating many different types of games.
For this reason, the scripting language should be able to handle game concepts intuitively. Among other things, it should be easy to define a variety of types, sub-type them with slightly different properties, query and modify objects dynamically, and so on.
Furthermore, it should be possible for the game developer to handle every situation they come across in the scripting language. While basic components like the renderer and networking would be implemented in C++, game-specific mechanisms such as rotating a few hundred objects around a planet will be handled in the scripting language. This means that the scripting language has to be insanely fast, 1/10 C speed is probably the minimum.
Then there's the problem of debugging. Information about the function, stack trace and variable states that the error occurred in should be accessible.
Last but not least, this is a project done by a single person. Even if I wanted to, I simply don't have the resources to spend weeks on just the glue code. Integrating the language with my project shouldn't be much harder than integrating lua.
Examining the two suggested languages, lua and python, lua is fast(luajit) and easy to integrate, but its standard debugging facilities seem to be lacking. What's even worse, lua by default has no type-system at all. Of course you can implement that on your own, but the syntax will always be weird and unintuitive.
Python, on the other hand, is very comfortable to use and has a basic class system. However, it's not that easy to integrate, it's paradigm doesn't really involve type-checking and it's definitely not fast enough for more complex games. I'd again like to point out that everything would be done in python. I'm well aware that python would likely be fast enough for 90% of the code.
There's also Scala, which I haven't seen suggested so far. Scala seems to actually fulfill most of the requirements, but embedding the Java VM with C doesn't seem very easy, and it generally seems like java expects you to build your application around java rather than the other way around. I'm also not sure if Scala's functional paradigm would be good for intuitive game-development.
EDIT: Please note that this question isn't about finding a solution at any cost. If there isn't any language better than lua, I will simply compromise and use that(I actually already have the thing linked into my program). I just want to make sure I'm not missing something that'd be more suitable before doing so, seeing as lua is far from the perfect solution for me.
You might consider mono. I only know of one success story for this approach, but it is a big one: C++ engine with mono scripting is the approach taken in Unity.
Try the Ring programming language
http://ring-lang.net
It's general-purpose multi-paradigm scripting language that can be embedded in C/C++ projects, extended using C/C++ code and/or used as standalone language. The supported programming paradigms are Imperative, Procedural, Object-Oriented, Functional, Meta programming, Declarative programming using nested structures, and Natural programming.
The language is simple, trying to be natural, encourage organization and comes with transparent implementation. It comes with compact syntax and a group of features that enable the programmer to create natural interfaces and declarative domain-specific languages in a fraction of time. It is very small, fast and comes with smart garbage collector that puts the memory under the programmer control. It supports many programming paradigms, comes with useful and practical libraries. The language is designed for productivity and developing high quality solutions that can scale.
The compiler + The Virtual Machine are 15,000 lines of C code
Embedding Ring Interpreter in C/C++ Programs
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ring/Lessons/Embedding_Ring_Interpreter_in_C/C%2B%2B_Programs
For embeddability, you might look into Tcl, or if you're into Scheme, check out SIOD or Guile. I would suggest Lua or Python in general, of course, but your question precludes them.
Since noone seems to know a combination better than lua/luajit, I think I will leave it at that. Thanks for everyone's input on this. I personally find lua to be very lacking as a high-level language for game-programming, but it's probably the best choice out there. So to whomever finds this question and has the same requirements(fast, easy to use, easy to embed), you'll either have to use lua/luajit or make your own. :)
We are developing software with pattern recognition in video. We have 7 mathematicians who are creating algorithms. Plus we have 2 developers that maintain / develop the application with these algorithms. The problem is that mathematicians are using different development tools to create algorithm like Matlab, C, C++. Also because they are not developers the don't give much concerns for memory management or multi-threading. This one of the reason why the app. has a lot of bugs.
If in your company you have similar situation, how do you deal with it? What's the best tools you can recommend to create algorithms? What communication supposed to be between mathematicians and developers? What's in your opinion the most effective to work with high-level tools?
I am not sure whether you devs are rewriting the mathematician's stuff or if you just have to interface to it so I am not sure if my answer is of any use.
However: I work together with a bunch of phd candidates and postdocs on a machine learning library and am a student myself. In that process, I came to translate a lot of algorithms from python/numpy to C++/blas.
This process can be quite tedious - especially with numerical and stochastic algorithms, it is hard to find bugs.
So here is what I did: Get some sample inputs and calculate the results with the python code. Generate unit tests out of these for C++ and then start coding them in C++.
Checking concrete sample inputs with the outputs is essential in this setting.
I agree with Makach.
Let the guys who are creating the algorithms use the tools that they are most familiar with. Because there are two separate (and equally important) tasks to work on in this project. First, there is the creating of an efficient, elegant and appropriate mathematically sound algorithm, then there is the twistedly difficult task of translating it into CPU-speak. The mathimaticians should focus on their first task, and to make it easier for them, allow them to use the toosl they are comfortable with. In terms of man hours, it is a much more efficient use of their time to write MATLAB code, than it would be to have them learn a new programming language.
Your task is to unearth the (presumably) brilliant mathematics that are buried within the gibberish code.
That part is just a perspective on the problem at hand. Here's the actual answer.
Communication, mutual respect, and teaching/learning.
Communication & Mutual Respect
You must communicate with them often. Work closely with them and ask them questions whenever you come across something you're not sure of. This is much easier when there is mutual respect, which means that if you spend all your time criticizing their coding abilities, then they will be forced to spend all their time criticizing your math abilities. Instead, try quick learning-sessions. ("Lunch & Learn" is a fairly common tactic)
Teaching/Learning
The first and most important piece of wisdom to impart to them is commenting. Have them comment the crap out of their code. Tell them that the comments are much more important than the code quality, and that as long as their comments are right, they can leave the rest up to you guys. Because they can. They don't need to have their code look beautiful, for be the fastest, they just need it to make sense to you guys.
To continue this mutual learning scenario, if you notice some very simple very common mistakes they are making, (nothing NEARLY as complicated as multithreading) just give them a quick heads up. "That way works (or doesn't) but here's a way to do it that is a little different but it will make your lives much much easier." Encourage them to reciprocate by trying to notice which nuances or parts of their algorithms which you and your team are having difficulty with and teach a little tutorial about it.
Once you guys get the communication flowing, you'll find it easier and easier to shape their coding style to what is best for your team, and they will also find it easier to understand why you don't see it the same way they do.
Also, as mentioned by Kekoav, make sure they provide a few fully loaded test cases.
That means for something like
A -> B -> C -> D -> Solution
They would provide you all the values for A, then what it looks like at B, then what it looks like at C and so on. So that you can be certain that not only is it correct at the end, but it's also correct at every step of the way. Try to have them provide examples that are regular, and also a few of them that are unusual, so that you can be certain your code covers edge cases.
I'd recommend the devs spend a few hours getting used to Matlab, especially the Matlab debugger. If their background is CS then they'll already be familiar with vectors and matrices theoretically if not practically. Other than the matrix being the default data structure, Matlab is C-like and easy enough to interpret for translation into another language.
I have been working with a physics professor lately, and have a little experience with this(although admittedly I'm no expert).
I have had to translate a lot of Matlab code into another language. It has been difficult because a lot of(most) of the operations are absent, including when it comes to precision, and working with matrices and vectors. A good math library needs to be found, or created to fit your needs.
The best way that I have found is to do the following:
Get the algorithm to work correctly in the new language.
Create some tests to verify that the algorithm is producing desired output. Have your mathematicians verify that your converted solution in fact works, and that you have covered all bases with your tests.
Then after it is working, and you can trust your tests, optimize the algorithm to be good coding style, have good design and performance characteristics. Use your regression tests to make sure you aren't breaking anything.
I normally start with a verbatim copy of their algorithms into the other language, and then work from there, regardless of if I do a lot of tests.
It is important to get a working copy first, in case the performance is really not an issue and you need to move on to other things and can come back later to make it faster.
This is your job. How you deal with this is what identifies you as a system developer.
Communicate with your colleagues. Draw and explain, have meetings, agree upon and set standards requirements, follow your plans and talk to your project manager. Make sure that your relevant colleagues are joining up on meetings. Have 1-1 talks etc etc
You cannot blame it on the mathematicians for developers creating bugs. It's their job to worry about implementation, not the mathematicians.
Having been a hobbyist programmer for 3 years (mainly Python and C) and never having written an application longer than 500 lines of code, I find myself faced with two choices :
(1) Learn the essentials of data structures and algorithm design so I can become a l33t computer scientist.
(2) Learn Qt, which would help me build projects I have been itching to build for a long time.
For learning (1), everyone seems to recommend reading CLRS. Unfortunately, reading CLRS would take me at least an year of study (or more, I'm not Peter Krumins). I also understand that to accomplish any moderately complex task using (2), I will need to understand at least the fundamentals of (1), which brings me to my question : assuming I use C++ as the programming language of choice, which parts of CLRS would give me sufficient knowledge of algorithms and data structures to work on large projects using (2)?
In other words, I need a list of theoretical CompSci topics absolutely essential for everyday application programming tasks. Also, I want to use CLRS as a handy reference, so I don't want to skip any material critical to understanding the later sections of the book.
Don't get me wrong here. Discrete math and the theoretical underpinnings of CompSci have been on my "TODO: URGENT" list for about 6 months now, but I just don't have enough time owing to college work. After a long time, I have 15 days off to do whatever the hell I like, and I want to spend these 15 days building applications I really want to build rather than sitting at my desk, pen and paper in hand, trying to write down the solution to a textbook problem.
(BTW, a less-math-more-code resource on algorithms will be highly appreciated. I'm just out of high school and my math is not at the level it should be.)
Thanks :)
This could be considered heresy, but the vast majority of application code does not require much understanding of algorithms and data structures. Most languages provide libraries which contain collection classes, searching and sorting algorithms, etc. You generally don't need to understand the theory behind how these work, just use them!
However, if you've never written anything longer than 500 lines, then there are a lot of things you DO need to learn, such as how to write your application's code so that it's flexible, maintainable, etc.
For a less-math, more code resource on algorithms than CLRS, check out Algorithms in a Nutshell. If you're going to be writing desktop applications, I don't consider CLRS to be required reading. If you're using C++ I think Sedgewick is a more appropriate choice.
Try some online comp sci courses. Berkeley has some, as does MIT. Software engineering radio is a great podcast also.
See these questions as well:
What are some good computer science resources for a blind programmer?
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/360542/plumber-programmers-vs-computer-scientists#360554
Heed the wisdom of Don and just do it. Can you define the features that you want your application to have? Can you break those features down into smaller tasks? Can you organize the code produced by those tasks into a coherent structure?
Of course you can. Identify any 'risky' areas (areas that you do not understand, e.g. something that requires more math than you know, or special algorithms you would have to research) and either find another solution, prototype a solution, or come back to SO and ask specific questions.
Moving from 500 loc to a real (eve if small) application it's not that easy.
As Don was pointing out, you'll need to learn a lot of things about code (flexibility, reuse, etc), you need to learn some very basic of configuration management as well (visual source safe, svn?)
But the main issue is that you need a way to don't be overwhelmed by your functiononalities/code pair. That it's not easy. What I can suggest you is to put in place something to 'automatically' test your code (even in a very basic way) via some regression tests. Otherwise it's going to be hard.
As you can see I think it's no related at all to data structure, algorithms or whatever.
Good luck and let us know
I must say that sitting down with a dry old textbook and reading it through is not the way to learn how to do anything effectively, even if you are making notes. Doing it is the best way to learn, using the textbooks as a reference. Indeed, using sites like this as a reference.
As for data structures - learn which one is good for whatever situation you envision: Sets (sorted and unsorted), Lists (ArrayList, LinkedList), Maps (HashMap, TreeMap). Complexity of doing basic operations - adding, removing, searching, sorting, etc. That will help you to select an appropriate library data structure to use in your application.
And also make sure you're reasonably warm with MVC - i.e., ensure your model is separate from your view (the QT front-end) as best as possible. Best would be to have the model and algorithms working on their own, and then put the GUI on top. Or a unit test on top. Etc...
Good luck!
It's like saying you want to move to France, so should you learn french from a book, and what are the essential words - or should you just go to France and find out which words you need to know from experience and from copying the locals.
Writing code is part of learning computer science. I was writing code long before I'd even heard of the term, and lots of people were writing code before the term was invented.
Besides, you say you're itching to write certain applications. That can't be taught, so just go ahead and do it. Some things you only learn by doing.
(The theoretical foundations will just give you a deeper understanding of what you wind up doing anyway, which will mainly be copying other people's approaches. The only caveat is that in some cases the theoretical stuff will tell you what's futile to attempt - e.g. if one of your itches is to solve an NP complete problem, you probably won't succeed :-)
I would say the practical aspects of coding are more important. In particular, source control is vital if you don't use that already. I like bzr as an easy to set up and use system, though GUI support isn't as mature as it could be.
I'd then move on to one or both of the classics about the craft of coding, namely
The Pragmatic Programmer
Code Complete 2
You could also check out the list of recommended books on Stack Overflow.
For a long time I've been trying different languages to find the feature-set I want and I've not been able to find it. I have languages that fit decently for various projects of mine, but I've come up with an intersection of these languages that will allow me to do 99.9% of my projects in a single language. I want the following:
Built on top of .NET or has a .NET implementation
Has few dependencies on the .NET runtime both at compile-time and runtime (this is important since one of the major use cases is in embedded development where the .NET runtime is completely custom)
Has a compiler that is 100% .NET code with no unmanaged dependencies
Supports arbitrary expression nesting (see below)
Supports custom operator definitions
Supports type inference
Optimizes tail calls
Has explicit immutable/mutable definitions (nicety -- I've come to love this but can live without it)
Supports real macros for strong metaprogramming (absolute must-have)
The primary two languages I've been working with are Boo and Nemerle, but I've also played around with F#.
Main complaints against Nemerle: The compiler has horrid error reporting, the implementation is buggy as hell (compiler and libraries), the macros can only be applied inside a function or as attributes, and it's fairly heavy dependency-wise (although not enough that it's a dealbreaker).
Main complaints against Boo: No arbitrary expression nesting (dealbreaker), macros are difficult to write, no custom operator definition (potential dealbreaker).
Main complaints against F#: Ugly syntax, hard to understand metaprogramming, non-free license (epic dealbreaker).
So the more I think about it, the more I think about developing my own language.
Pros:
Get the exact syntax I want
Get a turnaround time that will be a good deal faster; difficult to quantify, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 1.5x developer productivity, especially due to the test infrastructures this can enable for certain projects
I can easily add custom functionality to the compiler to play nicely with my runtime
I get something that is designed and works exactly the way I want -- as much as this sounds like NIH, this will make my life easier
Cons:
Unless it can get popularity, I will be stuck with the burden of maintenance. I know I can at least get the Nemerle people over, since I think everyone wants something more professional, but it takes a village.
Due to the first con, I'm wary of using it in a professional setting. That said, I'm already using Nemerle and using my own custom modified compiler since they're not maintaining it well at all.
If it doesn't gain popularity, finding developers will be much more difficult, to an extent that Paul Graham might not even condone.
So based on all of this, what's the general consensus -- is this a good idea or a bad idea? And perhaps more helpfully, have I missed any big pros or cons?
Edit: Forgot to add the nesting example -- here's a case in Nemerle:
def foo =
if(bar == 5)
match(baz) { | "foo" => 1 | _ => 0 }
else bar;
Edit #2: Figured it wouldn't hurt to give an example of the type of code that will be converted to this language if it's to exist (S. Lott's answer alone may be enough to scare me away from doing it). The code makes heavy use of custom syntax (opcode, :=, quoteblock, etc), expression nesting, etc. You can check a good example out here: here.
Sadly, there's no metrics or stories around failed languages. Just successful languages. Clearly, the failures outnumber the successes.
What do I base this on? Two common experiences.
Once or twice a year, I have to endure a pitch for a product/language/tool/framework that will Absolutely Change Everything. My answer has been constant for the last 20 or so years. Show me someone who needs support and my company will support them. And that's that. Never hear from them again. Let's say I've heard 25 of these.
Once or twice each year, I have to work with a customer who has orphaned technology. At some point in the past, some clever programming built a tool/framework/library/package that was used internally for several projects. Then that programmer left. No one else can figure that darn thing out, and they want us to replace/rewrite it. Sadly, we can't figure it out either, and our proposal is to rewrite from scratch. And they complain that their genius built the set of apps in a period of weeks, it can't take us months to rewrite them in Java/Python/VB/C#. Let's say I've written 25 or so of these kinds of proposals.
That's just me, one consultant.
Indeed one particularly sad situation was a company who's entire IT software portfolio was written by one clever guy with a private language and tools. He hadn't left, but he'd realized that his language and toolset had fallen way behind the times -- the state of the art had moved on, and he hadn't.
And the move was -- of course -- in an unexpected direction. His language and tools were okay, but the world had started to adopt relational databases, and he had absolutely no way to upgrade his junk to move away from flat files. It was something he had not foreseen. Indeed, it was something he could not possibly foresee. [You won't fall into this trap, will you?]
So, we talked. He rewrote a lot of the applications in Plain-Old VAX Fortran (yes, this is a long time ago.) And he rewrote it to use plain old relational SQL stuff (Ingres, at the time.)
After a year of coding, they were having performance problems. They called me back to review all the great stuff they'd done in replacing the home-built language. Sadly, they'd done the worst possible relational database design. Worst possible. They'd taken their file copies, merges, sorts, and what-not, and implemented each low-level file system operation using SQL, duplicating database rows left, right and center.
He was so mired in his private vision of the perfect language, that he couldn't adapt to a relatively common, pervasive new technology.
I say go for it.
It would be an awesome experience regardless of weather it makes it to production or not.
If you make it compile down to IL then you do not have to worry about not being able to re-use your compiled assemblies with C#
If you believe that you have valid complaints about the languages you listed above, it is likely that many will think like you. Of course, for every 1000 interested person there might be 1 willing to help you maintain it - but that is always the risk
But here are a few things to be cautioned about:
Get your language specification IN STONE before development. Make sure any and all language features are figured out before hand - even things that you may only want in the future. In my opinion, C# is slowly falling into the "oh-just-one-more-language-extension" trap that will lead to its eventual doom.
Be sure to make it optimized. I dont know what you already know; but if you dont know then learn ;) Nobody will want a language that has nice syntax but runs as slow as IE's javascript implementation.
Good luck :D
When I first started my career in the early 90s, there seemed to be this craze of everyone developing their own in-house languages. My first 3 jobs were with companies that had done this. One company had even developed their own operating system!
From experience, I'd say this is a bad idea for the following reasons:
1) You will spend time debugging the language itself in addition to the code base on top of it
2) Any developers you hire will need to go through the learning curve of the language
3) It will be hard to attract and keep developers since working in a proprietary language is a dead-end for someone's career
The main reason I left those three jobs was because they had proprietary languages and you'll notice that not many companies take this route any more :).
An additional argument I'd make is that most languages have entire teams whose full time job it is to develop the language. Maybe you'd be an exception, but I'd be very surprised if you'd be able to match that level of development by only working on the language part-time.
Main complaints against Nemerle: The
compiler has horrid error reporting,
the implementation is buggy as hell
(compiler and libraries), the macros
can only be applied inside a function
or as attributes, and it's fairly
heavy dependency-wise (although not
enough that it's a dealbreaker).
I see your post has been written more than two years ago.
I advise you trying Nemerle language today.
The compiler is stable. There are no blocker bugs for today.
The VS integration has a lot of improvements , also there is SharpDevelop integration.
If you give it a chance, you won't be disappointed.
NEVER EVER develop your own language.
Developing your own language is a fool's trap, and worse it will limit you to what your imagination can provide, as well demanding that you work out both your development environment and the actual programme you're writing.
The cases in which this doesn't apply are pretty much if you're Larry Wall, the AWK guys, or part of a substantial group of people dedicated to testing the boundaries of programming. If you're in any of those categories, you don't need my advice, but I strongly doubt that you're targeting a niche where there is no suitable programming language for the task AND the characteristics of the people doing the task.
If you are as clever as you seem to be (a likely possibility), my advice is to go ahead and do the design of the language first, iterate a couple of times over it, ask some smart fellows you trust in smart programming language related communities about the concrete design you came up with and then take the decision.
You might realize in the process of creating the design that just a quick hack on Nemerle would give it all you need, for example. Many things can happen just when thinking hard about a problem, and the final solution might not be what you actually had in mind when beginning the project.
Worst case scenario, you're stuck with actually implementing the design, but by then you will have it proof read and mature, and you'll know with a high degree of certainty that it was a good path to take.
A related piece of advice, start small, just define the features you absolutely need and then build on them to get the rest.
Writing your own language is not a easy project.. Especially one to be used in any kind of "professional setting"
It is a huge amount of work, and I would doubt you could write your own language, and still write any big projects that use it - you will spend so long adding features that you need, fixing bugs, and general language-design stuff.
I would strongly recommend choosing a language that is closest to what you want, and extending it to do what you need. It'll never be exactly what you want, but compared to the time you'll spend writing your own language, I would say that's a small compromise..
Scala has a .NET compiler. I don't know the status of this though. It's kind of a second class citizen in the Scala world (which is more focused on the JVM). But it might be a good tradeof to adopt the .NET compiler instead of creating a new language from scratch.
Scala is kind of weak in the meta-programming department ATM. It's possible that the need for metaprogramming is somewhat reduced by other language features. In any case I don't think anyone would be sad if you were to implement metaprogramming features for it. Also there is a compiler plug-in infrastructure on the way.
I think most languages will never fit all of the bill.
You might want to combine your 2 favourite languages (in my case C# and Scheme) and use them together.
From a professional point of view, this probably not a good idea though.
It would be interesting to hear some of the things you feel you can't do in existing languages. What kind of projects are you working on that can't be done in C#?
I'm just curios!