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First off, I'm aware that there are many questions related to this, but none of them seemed to help my specific situation. In particular, lua and python don't fit my needs as well as I could hope. It may be that no language with my requirements exists, but before coming to that conclusion it'd be nice to hear a few more opinions. :)
As you may have guessed, I need such a language for a game engine I'm trying to create. The purpose of this game engine is to provide a user with the basic tools for building a game, while still giving her the freedom of creating many different types of games.
For this reason, the scripting language should be able to handle game concepts intuitively. Among other things, it should be easy to define a variety of types, sub-type them with slightly different properties, query and modify objects dynamically, and so on.
Furthermore, it should be possible for the game developer to handle every situation they come across in the scripting language. While basic components like the renderer and networking would be implemented in C++, game-specific mechanisms such as rotating a few hundred objects around a planet will be handled in the scripting language. This means that the scripting language has to be insanely fast, 1/10 C speed is probably the minimum.
Then there's the problem of debugging. Information about the function, stack trace and variable states that the error occurred in should be accessible.
Last but not least, this is a project done by a single person. Even if I wanted to, I simply don't have the resources to spend weeks on just the glue code. Integrating the language with my project shouldn't be much harder than integrating lua.
Examining the two suggested languages, lua and python, lua is fast(luajit) and easy to integrate, but its standard debugging facilities seem to be lacking. What's even worse, lua by default has no type-system at all. Of course you can implement that on your own, but the syntax will always be weird and unintuitive.
Python, on the other hand, is very comfortable to use and has a basic class system. However, it's not that easy to integrate, it's paradigm doesn't really involve type-checking and it's definitely not fast enough for more complex games. I'd again like to point out that everything would be done in python. I'm well aware that python would likely be fast enough for 90% of the code.
There's also Scala, which I haven't seen suggested so far. Scala seems to actually fulfill most of the requirements, but embedding the Java VM with C doesn't seem very easy, and it generally seems like java expects you to build your application around java rather than the other way around. I'm also not sure if Scala's functional paradigm would be good for intuitive game-development.
EDIT: Please note that this question isn't about finding a solution at any cost. If there isn't any language better than lua, I will simply compromise and use that(I actually already have the thing linked into my program). I just want to make sure I'm not missing something that'd be more suitable before doing so, seeing as lua is far from the perfect solution for me.
You might consider mono. I only know of one success story for this approach, but it is a big one: C++ engine with mono scripting is the approach taken in Unity.
Try the Ring programming language
http://ring-lang.net
It's general-purpose multi-paradigm scripting language that can be embedded in C/C++ projects, extended using C/C++ code and/or used as standalone language. The supported programming paradigms are Imperative, Procedural, Object-Oriented, Functional, Meta programming, Declarative programming using nested structures, and Natural programming.
The language is simple, trying to be natural, encourage organization and comes with transparent implementation. It comes with compact syntax and a group of features that enable the programmer to create natural interfaces and declarative domain-specific languages in a fraction of time. It is very small, fast and comes with smart garbage collector that puts the memory under the programmer control. It supports many programming paradigms, comes with useful and practical libraries. The language is designed for productivity and developing high quality solutions that can scale.
The compiler + The Virtual Machine are 15,000 lines of C code
Embedding Ring Interpreter in C/C++ Programs
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ring/Lessons/Embedding_Ring_Interpreter_in_C/C%2B%2B_Programs
For embeddability, you might look into Tcl, or if you're into Scheme, check out SIOD or Guile. I would suggest Lua or Python in general, of course, but your question precludes them.
Since noone seems to know a combination better than lua/luajit, I think I will leave it at that. Thanks for everyone's input on this. I personally find lua to be very lacking as a high-level language for game-programming, but it's probably the best choice out there. So to whomever finds this question and has the same requirements(fast, easy to use, easy to embed), you'll either have to use lua/luajit or make your own. :)
if i like Ruby a lot, is there a reason I should learn another language now, such as Lua or Erlang?
New programming languages, much like spoken languages, can open up new perspectives. Learning new languages -- especially ones rather different from what you're used to (and Erlang will probably fit that bill) -- can teach you a lot of different things you didn't even know you didn't know about programming. So yes, I think you absolutely should, even if you just learn enough to tinker with it and get a feel for the new language.
Learning a functional language in particular can be extremely beneficial. Becoming familiar with the functional style of programming is a surefire step toward becoming a better programmer. Lisp (or its derivatives) in particular is a good language to study. Here's a list of past thread on SO that might offer you some insight along these lines:
Why do people think functional programming will catch on?
What’s a good Functional language to learn?
Benefits of learning scheme?
Leaving aside the (excellent) general reasons to want to learn another language, if you like Ruby a lot you might want to
Learn Smalltalk, which is a language very, very similar to Ruby but in purer form.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that is based on algebraic data types and functions rather than objects and methods, and something with a static type system rather than a dynamic type system—but something that, like Ruby, will support powerful methods of program composition and generic programming. Good candidates would include Standard ML and Haskell.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that makes you control every bit, address, and word in memory—something that forces you to understand and take control of the hardware. In other words, learn C.
Regarding the other languages you mention,
Lua is small and very elegantly designed and implemented. That may appeal to the Rubyist in you. But unlike Ruby it does not impose much of a worldview; it is more of a collection of piece parts. I would suggest you're more likely to appreciate and enjoy Lua after you've worked in three or four other languages first.
Erlang is interesting, but I have a gut feel it's either too different (purely functional, distributed) or not different enough (dynamic type system). But if it appeals to you, go for it.
On the other hand, there's something to be said for really knowing a language well. You'll be able to do a lot more with in-depth knowledge of a single language than you will with surface knowledge of a dozen.
If you like Ruby a lot you should definitely learn another language... one without sigils if possible.
Seems to me that a professional learns the tools he needs to use. Frameworks, containers, languages, all are fair game. I started out in Pascal, went to C and then C++. Then converted to Java. These days its mostly Java with a lot of Javascript and some PHP. Easy enough right? Well, I also need to learn Bash scripting and Perl. Never mind all the other crap I need to get on top of (if you say you understand all of web authentication I will call you a liar). There's a lot of stuff out there. Jump in. Be willing to try different things.
I always enjoy learning new languages for the mere challenge of it. It keeps my brain fit. I've also found it makes for good job interview fodder to be able to say "I'm flexible. I'm adaptable to whatever your needs may be in the future. And I can prove it with my long list of languages."
My main language is PHP. I am a script language fan, nevertheless I have dived into C#, Java, Python, Ruby and even OO JavaScript books to find new mechanisms, ways of thinking. I have found pretty many stunts in Java for example, that I could implement in my all day work. So learning or just studying new languages can widen your perspective.
Dynamic languages are on the rise and there are plenty of them: e.g. Ruby, Groovy, Jython, Scala (static, but has the look and feel of a dynamic language) etc etc.
My background is in Java SE and EE programming and I want to extend my knowledge into one of these dynamic languages to be better prepared for the future.
But which dynamic language should I focus on learning and why? Which of these will be the preferred language in the near future?
Learning Ruby or Python (and Scala to a lesser extent) means you'll have very transferrable skills - you could use the Java version, the native version or the .NET version (IronRuby/IronPython). Groovy is nice but JVM-specific.
Being "better prepared for the future" is tricky unless you envisage specific scenarios. What kind of thing do you want to work on? Do you have a project which you could usefully implement in a dynamic language? Is it small enough to try on a couple of them, to get a feeling of how they differ?
Scala is not a dynamic language at all. Type inference doesn't mean that its untyped. However, Its a very nice language that has nice mixture of OOPs and functional programming. The only problem is some gotchas that you encounter along the way.
Since you are already an experienced Java programmer, it will fit nicely into your skillset. Now, if you want to go all the way dynamic both Ruby or Python are awesome languages. There is demand for both the languages.
I would personally recommend Clojure. Clojure is an awesome new language that is going in popularity faster than anything I've ever seen. Clojure is a powerful, simple, and fast Lisp implemented on the JVM. It has access to all Java libraries of course, just like Scala. It has a book written about it already, it's matured to version 1.0, and it has three IDE plugins in development, with all three very usable.
I would take a look at Scala. Why ?
it's a JVM language, so you can leverage off your current Java skills
it now has a lot of tooling/IDE support (e.g. Intellij will handle Scala projects)
it has a functional aspect to it. Functional languages seem to be getting a lot of traction at the moment, and I think it's a paradigm worth learning for the future
My (entirely subjective) view is that Scala seems to be getting a lot of the attention that Groovy got a year or two ago. I'm not trying to be contentious here, or suggest that makes it a better language, but it seems to be the new JVM language de jour.
As an aside, a language that has some dynamic attributes is Microsoft's F#. I'm currently looking at this (and ignoring my own advice re. points 1 and 2 above!). It's a functional language with objects, built on .Net, and is picking up a lot of attention at the moment.
In the game industry Lua, if you're an Adobe based designer Lua is also good, if you're an embedded programmer Lua is practically the only light-weight solution, but if you are looking into Web development and General tool scripting Python would be more practical
I found Groovy to be a relatively easy jump from an extensive Java background -- it's sort of a more convenient version of Java. It integrates really nicely with existing Java code as well, if you need to do that sort of thing.
I'd recommend Python. It has a huge community and has a mature implementation (along with several promising not-so-mature-just-yet ones). Perl is as far as I've seen loosing a lot of traction compared to the newer languages, presumably due to its "non-intuitiveness" (no, don't get me started on that).
When you've done a project or two in Python, go on to something else to get some broader perspective. If you've done a few non-trivial things in two different dynamic languages, you won't have any problems assimilating any other language.
JScript is quite usefull, and its certainly a dynamic language...
If you want a language with a good number of modules (for almost anything!), go for Perl. With its CPAN, you will always find what you want without reinventing the wheel.
Well keeping in mind your background, i would recommend a language where the semantics are similar to what you are aware of. Hence a language like Scala, Fan, Groovy would be a good starting point.Once you get a hang of the basic semantics of using a functional language(as well as start loving it), you can move onto a language like Ruby. The turn around time for you in this way gets reduced as well as the fact that you can move towards being a polyglot programmer.
i would vote +1 for Groovy (and Grails). You can type with Java style or Groovy still (you can also mix both and have no worry about that). Also you can use Java libs.
As a general rule, avoid dynamically typed languages. The loss of compile time checking and the self-documenting nature of strong, static typing is well worth the necessity of putting type information into your source code. If the extra typing you need to do when writing your code is too great an effort, then a language with type inference (Scala, Haskell) might be of interest.
Having type information makes code much more readable, and readability should be your #1 criteria in coding. It is expensive for a person to read code, anything that inhibits clear, accurate understanding by the reader is a bad thing. In OO languages it is even worse, because you are always making new types. A reader just getting familiar will flounder because they do not know the types that are being passed around and modified. In Groovy, for example, the following is legal def accountHistoryReport(in, out) Reading that, I have no idea what in and out are. When you are looking at 20 different report methods that look just like that, you can quickly go completely homicidal.
If you really think you have to have non-static typing, then a language like Clojure is a good compromise. Lisp-like languages are built on a small set of key abstractions and massive amount of capability on each of the abstractions. So in Clojure, I will create a map (hash) that has the attributes of my object. It is a bit reductionalist, but I will not have to look through the whole code base for the implementation of some un-named class.
My rule of thumb is that I write scripts in dynamic languages, and systems in compiled, statically typed languages.
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Following up on my previous question on the enduring properties of a book on algorithms, see here, now I would like to ask the community what language would you use to write the examples of such a reference book.
I will probably not use MMIX (!) to write the examples of the book, but at the same time, I think just pseudo-code would be less interesting than examples in a real language.
Still, I'd also like the book to be a resource for researchers as well. What could be the choice of the community? Why?
Answer: I knew this was a tough question and that there would be several different answers. Notice that answers cover the whole range from Assembly/MMIX(!!) to Python and pseudo-code. The votes and the arguments compel me to choose Uri's sensible answer, with one caveat: my pseudo-code will be as close to C as I possibly can (without going into platform specific issues, of course), and I will possibly discuss better implementations in side notes (As all of us know, mathematically proving the algorithm works is far, far from the problems of implementing it).
The book is on algorithms in a particular domain, not on the mathematics of algorithms in general (much smarter people have done and will do much better than me on general algorithms). As such, one thing I consider would add value to such a book is the repository of the algorithms, which I will definitely put online in a companion website (maybe in a couple of languages, if I find the time).
Thanks for all the answers. I sometimes feel I should put everybody who answers as co-authors. :)
A good book on algorithms should be written in psueod-code a-la-CLR...
In my experience, most books that go into language-specific examplse end up looking more like undergraduate textbook than like a serious reference or learning books. In addition, most languages are fairly clunky when dealing with collections (esp. C++ and Java, even with generics). Between all the details, too much is lost. You're also immediately eliminating a lot of your potential audience.
The only advantage to language specific books is that if you were writing a textbook, the publisher could attach a CD and add 50$ to the MSRP.
It's easier for me to understand an algorithm from (readable) pseudocode. If I can't figure out how to implement it in my language with my own collections, I'm in trouble anyway.
You could add to every pseudocode listing a note about implementation details for specific languages (e.g., use a TreeSet in Java for best performance, etc.)
You could also maintain a separate website for the book (good idea anyway) where you'll have actual implementations in different languages. No need to kill trees with long printouts.
Use a real programming language -- never a psuedo one. Readers are very suspicious
of psuedo code , readers like real programming languages. The trap with psuedo languages is that you can define code concepts that the reader cannot impliment in their language of choice
A real programming language has a number of advantages :
1) you can test your code, hopefuly proving your code correct !
2) you can export that code into a published format for insertion in your book,
ensuring that anybody following your code would be looking
at actual executable code.
3) you would not have to defend you psuedo code.
The choice of language is obvously subjective, but I think that almost any modern language
could be used, but I'd recommend one that has 'least overheads' in terms of quick understanding. And perferably one that the reader can get a compiler/interpreter.
If you'd like to use C, then perhaps you should check out D. An improved C.
For example, Ruby is of this ilk if you keep you code 'simple',
Java is not ( too many support libraries required),
in an earlier time Pascal would be a candidate.
BTW: I dont use Ruby now, as I currently use Smalltalk & REBOL, but I would not use
either of those languages in a book. Your book would go straight to the remainder bin !
I would avoid anything that abstracts the core 'mechanics' of any particular algorithm
There is a tremendous benefit in Knuth's rendering of the algorithms in an assembly level language. It forces the reader to carefully consider exactly what is going on in the silicon when we code algorithms in some higher level language. Especially for systems programmers, this kind of understanding can't be gotten any other way.
Knuth's new MMIX is ideal: consider it an assembly level pseudo-code.
My ideal textbook would have algorithms written in pseudocode and MMIX, so that we can see the algorithm in both its pretty and gory-complex forms. Pseudo-code should be preferred to "real languages", because it sidesteps pointless "you should have used this language not that language" battles. At this stage, pseudocode needs no defending -- the best extant algorithms textbooks use either pseudocode or in Knuth's case a kind of assembly pseudocode.
The choice is not going to be able to please everyone.
Robert Sedgewick has written his "Algorithms in..." books in multiple languages. I had the C version for a course and bought the C++ version when I started working with C++ at work.
You can't escape language features (even pseudo language features).
To try to please as many people as possible you could choose two languages, say one functional and one not. It could help illustrate motivations in algorithm choice.
C style is often used because many languages use a very similar style so most programmers understand it without explanation. Further, examples can be run on any machine with a C compiler - which is nearly every machine.
However, higher level concepts often require the use of more recent technologies and techniques - OO, functional programming, etc.
These are often expressed in the language that has the required features. Java, C#, Erlang, Ada, etc - most good programmers will grasp what is going on with just a little explanation.
But C is very nearly a universal foundation - you really can't go wrong if you adopt a C style for examples.
-Adam
I would not use any specific language. Use a pseudo-language that will be clear to most anyone who has done a little programming. Usually these books use something close to the C style, but that is not a rule. I know that you mention that you do not want to use pseudo code, but that will allow you to reach a broader audience.
I would use something that lets you express exactly the idea behind the algorithm.
Haskell is quite neat, but I think that with algorithms that work with state, it can get in your way, and you would be more occupied with the language than with the algorithm.
I wouldn't use C or its descendants (C++, C#, Java ...) because they will get in your way when your algorithms are more "functional" in nature. Again, you would be more occupied with the language than with the algorithm. I would feel very uncomfortable if I had to work without higher order functions.
So, basically, I would use a multi-paradigm language that you are comfortable with, and with which you feel confident that you can express the algorithms without diving into language specifics.
My personal choice would be something like Common Lisp, but perhaps Python or Scala is workable, too.
Python's a good choice all around. It's very readable, even if you haven't programmed in it before. Plus, it's a lot less verbose than some other common language choices.
I've just started one of my courses, as classes just began 2 weeks ago, and we are learning Scheme right now in one for I assume some reason later on, but so far from what he is teaching is basically how to write in scheme. As I sit here trying to stay awake I'm just trying to grasp why I would want to know this, and why anyone uses it. What does it excel at? Next week I plan to ask him, whats the goal to learn here other than just how to write stuff in scheme.
It's a functional programming language and will do well broaden your experience.
Even if you don't use it in the real world doesn't mean it doesn't have any value. It will help you master things like recursion and help to force you to think of problems in different ways than you normally would.
I wish my school forced us to learn a functional programming language.
Languages like LISP (and the very closely related Scheme) are to programming what Latin is to English.
You may never speak Latin a day in your normal life again after taking a course, but simply learning a language like Latin will improve your ability to use English.
The same is true for Scheme.
I see all these people here saying that while they would never actually use Scheme again it's nevertheless been a worthwhile language to learn because it forces a certain way of thinking. While this can be true, I would hope that you would learn Scheme because you eventually will find it useful and not simply as an exercise in learning.
Though it's not blazingly fast like a compiled language, nor is it particularly useful at serving websites or parsing text, I've found that Scheme (and other lisps by extension) has no parallel when it comes to simplicity, elegance, and powerful functional manipulation of complex data structures. To be honest, I think in Scheme. It's the language I solve problems in. Don't give up on or merely tolerate Scheme - give it a chance and it won't disappoint you.
By the way, the best IDE for Scheme is DrScheme, and it contains language extensions to do anything you can do in another language, and if you find something it can't you can just use the C FFI and write it yourself.
I would suggest to keep an open mind when learning. Most of the time in school we don't fully comprehend what/why we are learning a particular subject. But as I've experienced about a million times in life, it turns out to be very useful and at the very least being aware of it helps you. Scheme, believe it or not, will make you a better programmer.
Some people say Scheme's greatest strength is as a teaching language. While it is very beneficial to learn functional programming (it's an entirely new way of thinking) another benefit in learning scheme is that it is also "pure". Sure it can't do a ton of stuff like java, but that's also what's great about it, it's a language made entirely of parentheses, alphanumeric characters, and a mere handful other punctuations.
In my intro course, we are taught Java, and I see lots of my friends struggling with 'public static void main' even though that's not the point of the program and how the profs have no choice but to 'handwave' it until they're more advanced. You don't see that in Scheme.
If you really want to learn what Scheme can do in a piece of cake that is really hard to implement in languages like Java, I suggest looking at this: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-12.html#%_sec_1.3
This is probably the best book written on Scheme.
Scheme was used by NASA to program some of the Mars rovers. It's usage in the marketplace is pretty specific, but like I'm sure your teachers are telling you, the things you learn in Scheme will carry over to programming in general.
Try not to get caught up on details like the parenthesis, and car/cdr. Most of what you're learning translates to other languages in one way or another. Don't worry about whether or not you can take Scheme to the market place, chances are you'll be learning some other more marketable languages in other classes. What you are learning here is more important.
If you are learning scheme, you can learn all about how object systems are implemented (hint: an object system isn't always about a type that has methods and instance variables bound to it...). While this kind of knowledge won't help in 95% of your daily work, for 5% of your work you will depend on that knowledge.
Additionally, you can learn about completely different styles of computation, such as streams/lazy evaluation, or even logic programming. You could also learn more about how computer programs in general are interpreted; from the basics in how program code is evaluated, to more deeper aspects like making your own interpreter and compiler). Knowing this kind of information is what separates a good programmer from a great programmer.
Scheme is not really a Functional language, it's more method agnostic then that. Perhaps more to the point, Scheme is an excellent language to choose if you want to explore with different methods of computation. As an example, a highly parallel functional language "Termite" was built on top of Scheme.
In short, the point in learning scheme is so that you can learn the fundamentals of programming.
If you need some help in making programming in scheme more enjoyable, don't be afraid to ask. A lot of programmers get hung up on (for instance) the parenthesis, when there are perfectly great ways to work with scheme source code that makes parenthesis something to cherish, rather then hate. As an example, emacs with paredit-mode,some kind of scheme interaction mode and highlight-parenthesis-mode is pretty awesome.
My problem was when learning this we learned clisp right along with it. I couldn't keep the two strait to save my life.
What I did learn from them though was how to write better c and java code. This is simply because of the different programming style I learned. I have adapted more of the functional style into some of my programming and It has helped me in some cases.
I would never want to program in scheme or lisp again if I didn't have to, but I am glad that I at least did a little in them just to learn the different way to program.
Functional languages like Scheme have great application to mathematics, artificial intelligence, linguistics, and other highly theoretical areas of computer science (machine learning, natural language processing, etc). This is due to the purity of functional programming languages, which have no side effects, as well as their ability to navigate higher-order procedures with ease. A strong knowledge of functional programming languages is critical for solving many of the questions which hover just beyond the frontier of computer science. As a bonus, you'll get great with higher-order procedures and recursion.