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I've recently caught the FP bug (trying to learn Haskell), and I've been really impressed with what I've seen so far (first-class functions, lazy evaluation, and all the other goodies). I'm no expert yet, but I've already begun to find it easier to reason "functionally" than imperatively for basic algorithms (and I'm having trouble going back where I have to).
The one area where current FP seems to fall flat, however, is GUI programming. The Haskell approach seems to be to just wrap imperative GUI toolkits (such as GTK+ or wxWidgets) and to use "do" blocks to simulate an imperative style. I haven't used F#, but my understanding is that it does something similar using OOP with .NET classes. Obviously, there's a good reason for this--current GUI programming is all about IO and side effects, so purely functional programming isn't possible with most current frameworks.
My question is, is it possible to have a functional approach to GUI programming? I'm having trouble imagining what this would look like in practice. Does anyone know of any frameworks, experimental or otherwise, that try this sort of thing (or even any frameworks that are designed from the ground up for a functional language)? Or is the solution to just use a hybrid approach, with OOP for the GUI parts and FP for the logic? (I'm just asking out of curiosity--I'd love to think that FP is "the future," but GUI programming seems like a pretty large hole to fill.)
The Haskell approach seems to be to just wrap imperative GUI toolkits (such as GTK+ or wxWidgets) and to use "do" blocks to simulate an imperative style
That's not really the "Haskell approach" -- that's just how you bind to imperative GUI toolkits most directly -- via an imperative interface. Haskell just happens to have fairly prominent bindings.
There are several moderately mature, or more experimental purely functional/declarative approaches to GUIs, mostly in Haskell, and primarily using functional reactive programming.
Some examples are:
reflex-platform, https://github.com/reflex-frp/reflex-platform
grapefruit, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/grapefruit-ui-gtk
reactive, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/reactive-glut
wxFruit, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/wxFruit
reactive-banana, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/reactive-banana
For those of you not familiar with Haskell, Flapjax, http://www.flapjax-lang.org/ is an implementation of functional reactive programming on top of JavaScript.
My question is, is it possible to have a functional approach to GUI programming?
The key words you are looking for are "functional reactive programming" (FRP).
Conal Elliott and some others have made a bit of a cottage industry out of trying to find the right abstraction for FRP. There are several implementations of FRP concepts in Haskell.
You might consider starting with Conal's most recent "Push-Pull Functional Reactive Programming" paper, but there are several other (older) implementations, some linked from the haskell.org site. Conal has a knack for covering the entire domain, and his paper can be read without reference to what came before.
To get a feel for how this approach can be used for GUI development, you might want to look at Fudgets, which while it is getting a bit long in the tooth these days, being designed in the mid 90s, does present a solid FRP approach to GUI design.
Windows Presentation Foundation is a proof that functional approach works very well for GUI programming. It has many functional aspects and "good" WPF code (search for MVVM pattern) emphasizes the functional approach over imperative. I could bravely claim that WPF is the most successful real-world functional GUI toolkit :-)
WPF describes the User interface in XAML (although you can rewrite it to functionally looking C# or F# too), so to create some user interface you would write:
<!-- Declarative user interface in WPF and XAML -->
<Canvas Background="Black">
<Ellipse x:Name="greenEllipse" Width="75" Height="75"
Canvas.Left="0" Canvas.Top="0" Fill="LightGreen" />
</Canvas>
Moreover, WPF also allows you to declaratively describe animations and reactions to events using another set of declarative tags (again, same thing can be written as C#/F# code):
<DoubleAnimation
Storyboard.TargetName="greenEllipse"
Storyboard.TargetProperty="(Canvas.Left)"
From="0.0" To="100.0" Duration="0:0:5" />
In fact, I think that WPF has many things in common with Haskell's FRP (though I believe that WPF designers didn't know about FRP and it is a bit unfortunate - WPF sometimes feels a bit weird and unclear if you're using the functional point of view).
I would actually say that functional programming (F#) is much better tool for user interface programming than for example C#. You just need to think about the problem a little bit differently.
I discuss this topic in my functional programming book in Chapter 16, but there is a free excerpt available, which shows (IMHO) the most interesting pattern that you can use in F#. Say you want to implement drawing of rectangles (user pushes the button, moves the mouse and releases the button). In F#, you can write something like this:
let rec drawingLoop(clr, from) = async {
// Wait for the first MouseMove occurrence
let! move = Async.AwaitObservable(form.MouseMove)
if (move.Button &&& MouseButtons.Left) = MouseButtons.Left then
// Refresh the window & continue looping
drawRectangle(clr, from, (move.X, move.Y))
return! drawingLoop(clr, from)
else
// Return the end position of rectangle
return (move.X, move.Y) }
let waitingLoop() = async {
while true do
// Wait until the user starts drawing next rectangle
let! down = Async.AwaitObservable(form.MouseDown)
let downPos = (down.X, down.Y)
if (down.Button &&& MouseButtons.Left) = MouseButtons.Left then
// Wait for the end point of the rectangle
let! upPos = drawingLoop(Color.IndianRed, downPos)
do printfn "Drawn rectangle (%A, %A)" downPos upPos }
This is a very imperative approach (in the usual pragmatic F# style), but it avoids using mutable state for storing the current state of drawing and for storing inital location. It can be made even more functional though, I wrote a library that does that as part of my Master thesis, which should be available on my blog in the next couple of days.
Functional Reactive Programming is a more functional approach, but I find it somewhat harder to use as it relies on quite advanced Haskell features (such as arrows). However, it is very elegant in a large number of cases. It's limitation is that you cannot easily encode a state machine (which is a useful mental model for reactive programs). This is very easy using the F# technique above.
Whether you're in a hybrid functional/OO language like F# or OCaml, or in a purely functional language like Haskell where side-effects are relegated to the IO monad, it's mostly the case that a ton of the work required to manage a GUI is much more like a "side effect" than like a purely functional algorithm.
That said, there has been some really solid research put into functional GUIs. There are even some (mostly) functional toolkits such as Fudgets or FranTk.
You might check out the series by Don Syme on F# where he demo's creating a gui. the following link is to third part of the series (you can link from there to the other two parts).
Using F# for WPF development would be a very interesting GUI paradigm...
http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/C9-Lectures-Dr-Don-Syme-Introduction-to-F-3-of-3/
One of mind-opening ideas behind Functional Reactive Programming is to have an event handling function producing BOTH reaction to events AND the next event handling function. Thus an evolving system is represented as a sequence of event handling functions.
For me, learning of Yampa became a crucial poing to get that functions-producing-functions thing properly. There are some nice papers about Yampa. I recommend The Yampa Arcade:
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nhn/Talks/HW2003-YampaArcade.pdf (slides, PDF)
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nhn/Publications/hw2003.pdf (full article, PDF)
There is a wiki page on Yampa at Haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yampa
Original Yampa home page:
http://www.haskell.org/yampa (unfortunately is broken at the moment)
Since this question was first asked, functional reactive programming has been made a bit more mainstream by Elm.
I suggest checking it out at http://elm-lang.org , which also has some truly excellent interactive tutorials on how to make a fully functional in-browser GUI.
It allows you to make fully functional GUI's where the code you need to supply yourself consists only of pure functions. I personally found it a lot easier to get into than the various Haskell GUI frameworks.
Elliot's talk on FRP can be found here.
In addition, not really an answer but a remark and a few thoughts: somehow the term "functional GUI" seems a little bit like an oxymoron (pureness and IO in the same term).
But my vague understanding is that functional GUI programming is about declaratively defining a time dependent function that takes the (real)time dependent user input and produces time dependent GUI output.
In other words, this function is defined like a differential equation declaratively, instead of by an algorithm imperatively using mutable state.
So in conventional FP one uses time independent functions, while in FRP one uses time dependent functions as building blocks for describing a program.
Let us think about simulating a ball on a spring with which the user can interact. The ball's position is the graphical output (on the screen), user pushing the ball is a keypress (input).
Describing this simulation program in FRP (according to my understanding) is done by a single differential equation (declaratively): acceleration * mass = - stretch of spring * spring constant + Force exerted by the user.
Here is a video on ELM that illustrates this viewpoint.
As of 2016, there are several more, relatively mature FRP frameworks for Haskell such as Sodium and Reflex (but also Netwire).
The Manning book on Functional Reactive Programming showcases the Java version of Sodium, for working examples, and illustrates how an FRP GUI code base behaves and scales in comparison to imperative as well as Actor based approaches.
There's also a recent paper on Arrowized FRP and the prospect of incorporating side effects, IO and mutation in a law abiding, pure FRP setting: http://haskell.cs.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dwc-yale-formatted-dissertation.pdf.
Also worth noting is that JavaScript frameworks such as ReactJS and Angular and many others either already are or are moving towards using an FRP or otherwise functional approach to achieving scalable and composable GUI components.
Markup languages like XUL allow you to build a GUI in a declarative way.
To address this I posted some thoughts of mine in using F#,
http://fadsworld.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/f-in-the-enterprise-i/
http://fadsworld.wordpress.com/2011/04/17/fin-the-enterprise-ii-2/
I'm also planning to do a video tutorial to finish up the series and show how F# can contribute in UX programming.
I'm only talking in context of F# here.
-Fahad
All these other answers are built up upon functional programming, but make a lot of their own design decisions. One library that is built basically entirely out of functions and simple abstract data types is gloss. Here is the type for its play function from the source
-- | Play a game in a window. Like `simulate`, but you manage your own input events.
play :: Display -- ^ Display mode.
-> Color -- ^ Background color.
-> Int -- ^ Number of simulation steps to take for each second of real time.
-> world -- ^ The initial world.
-> (world -> Picture) -- ^ A function to convert the world a picture.
-> (Event -> world -> world)
-- ^ A function to handle input events.
-> (Float -> world -> world)
-- ^ A function to step the world one iteration.
-- It is passed the period of time (in seconds) needing to be advanced.
-> IO ()
As you can see, it works entirely by supplying pure functions with simple abstract types, that other libraries help you with.
The most apparent innovation noticed by people new to Haskell is that there is a separation between the impure world that is concerned with communicating with the outside world, and the pure world of computation and algorithms. A frequent beginner question is "How can I get rid of IO, i.e., convert IO a into a?" The way to to it is to use monads (or other abstractions) to write code that performs IO and chains effects. This code gathers data from the outside world, creates a model of it, does some computation, possibly by employing pure code, and outputs the result.
As far as the above model is concerned, I don't see anything terribly wrong with manipulating GUIs in the IO monad. The largest problem that arises from this style is that modules are not composable anymore, i.e., I lose most of my knowledge about the global execution order of statements in my program. To recover it, I have to apply similar reasoning as in concurrent, imperative GUI code. Meanwhile, for impure, non-GUI code the execution order is obvious because of the definition of the IO monad's >== operator (at least as long as there is only one thread). For pure code, it doesn't matter at all, except in corner cases to increase performance or to avoid evaluations resulting in ⊥.
The largest philosophical difference between console and graphical IO is that programs implementing the former are usually written in synchronous style. This is possible because there is (leaving aside signals and other open file descriptors) just one source of events: the byte stream commonly called stdin. GUIs are inherently asynchronous though, and have to react to keyboard events and mouse clicks.
A popular philosophy of doing asynchronous IO in a functional way is called Functional Reactive Programming (FRP). It got a lot of traction recently in impure, non-functional languages thanks to libraries such as ReactiveX, and frameworks such as Elm. In a nutshell, it's like viewing GUI elements and other things (such as files, clocks, alarms, keyboard, mouse) as event sources, called "observables", that emit streams of events. These events are combined using familiar operators such as map, foldl, zip, filter, concat, join, etc., to produce new streams. This is useful because the program state itself can be seen as scanl . map reactToEvents $ zipN <eventStreams> of the program, where N is equal to the number of observables ever considered by the program.
Working with FRP observables makes it possible to recover composability because events in a stream are ordered in time. The reason is that the event stream abstraction makes it possible to view all observables as black boxes. Ultimately, combining event streams using operators gives back some local ordering on execution. This forces me to be much more honest about which invariants my program actually relies on, similar to the way that all functions in Haskell have to be referentially transparent: if I want to pull data from another part of my program, I have to be explicit ad declare an appropriate type for my functions. (The IO monad, being a Domain-Specific language for writing impure code, effectively circumvents this)
Functional programming may have moved on from when I was at university, but as I recall the main point of a functional programming system was to stop the programmer creating any “side effect”. However users buy software due to the side effects that are created, e.g. updating a UI.
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Brief Description
I have a college work where I have to implement a graph library (I'll have to give a presentation about this work later)
The basic idea is to write all the code of the data structures and their algorithms from scratch, using the tools provided by some programming language, like C/C++, Java, Python, doesn't really matter which one of them I'll pick at first.
But I should not use any built-in graph libraries in the language: the goal of the work is to make the students learn how these algorithms work. There are some test cases which my program will be later submitted to.
It is not really necessary but, if you wanna take a look, here is the homework assignment: http://pastebin.com/GdtvMTMR (I used Control-C Control-V plus google translate from a LaTeX text, this is why the formatting is poor).
The Question
So, my question is: which programming language would be more time efficient to implement this library?
It doesn't really matter if the language is functional, structured or object oriented. My priority is time efficiency and performance.
The better language is the one you know more.
But if you're looking for some performance, take a look at compiled languages with optimisations. Keep in mind that the code you write is the major component responsible in final performance, the language itself cant do miracles.
A more low level language give to you controls but requires deeply knowledge of the language and the machine you're running your code, so it's a tradeoff.
By a personal choose I would recommend C/C++ to implement a graph library. I've already done this in the past and I used vanilla ANSI C and the performance was awesome.
The one you feel more passionate about and feel more comfortable coding with.
This way you will rock your project.
Myself would pick Java.
First off, I'm aware that there are many questions related to this, but none of them seemed to help my specific situation. In particular, lua and python don't fit my needs as well as I could hope. It may be that no language with my requirements exists, but before coming to that conclusion it'd be nice to hear a few more opinions. :)
As you may have guessed, I need such a language for a game engine I'm trying to create. The purpose of this game engine is to provide a user with the basic tools for building a game, while still giving her the freedom of creating many different types of games.
For this reason, the scripting language should be able to handle game concepts intuitively. Among other things, it should be easy to define a variety of types, sub-type them with slightly different properties, query and modify objects dynamically, and so on.
Furthermore, it should be possible for the game developer to handle every situation they come across in the scripting language. While basic components like the renderer and networking would be implemented in C++, game-specific mechanisms such as rotating a few hundred objects around a planet will be handled in the scripting language. This means that the scripting language has to be insanely fast, 1/10 C speed is probably the minimum.
Then there's the problem of debugging. Information about the function, stack trace and variable states that the error occurred in should be accessible.
Last but not least, this is a project done by a single person. Even if I wanted to, I simply don't have the resources to spend weeks on just the glue code. Integrating the language with my project shouldn't be much harder than integrating lua.
Examining the two suggested languages, lua and python, lua is fast(luajit) and easy to integrate, but its standard debugging facilities seem to be lacking. What's even worse, lua by default has no type-system at all. Of course you can implement that on your own, but the syntax will always be weird and unintuitive.
Python, on the other hand, is very comfortable to use and has a basic class system. However, it's not that easy to integrate, it's paradigm doesn't really involve type-checking and it's definitely not fast enough for more complex games. I'd again like to point out that everything would be done in python. I'm well aware that python would likely be fast enough for 90% of the code.
There's also Scala, which I haven't seen suggested so far. Scala seems to actually fulfill most of the requirements, but embedding the Java VM with C doesn't seem very easy, and it generally seems like java expects you to build your application around java rather than the other way around. I'm also not sure if Scala's functional paradigm would be good for intuitive game-development.
EDIT: Please note that this question isn't about finding a solution at any cost. If there isn't any language better than lua, I will simply compromise and use that(I actually already have the thing linked into my program). I just want to make sure I'm not missing something that'd be more suitable before doing so, seeing as lua is far from the perfect solution for me.
You might consider mono. I only know of one success story for this approach, but it is a big one: C++ engine with mono scripting is the approach taken in Unity.
Try the Ring programming language
http://ring-lang.net
It's general-purpose multi-paradigm scripting language that can be embedded in C/C++ projects, extended using C/C++ code and/or used as standalone language. The supported programming paradigms are Imperative, Procedural, Object-Oriented, Functional, Meta programming, Declarative programming using nested structures, and Natural programming.
The language is simple, trying to be natural, encourage organization and comes with transparent implementation. It comes with compact syntax and a group of features that enable the programmer to create natural interfaces and declarative domain-specific languages in a fraction of time. It is very small, fast and comes with smart garbage collector that puts the memory under the programmer control. It supports many programming paradigms, comes with useful and practical libraries. The language is designed for productivity and developing high quality solutions that can scale.
The compiler + The Virtual Machine are 15,000 lines of C code
Embedding Ring Interpreter in C/C++ Programs
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ring/Lessons/Embedding_Ring_Interpreter_in_C/C%2B%2B_Programs
For embeddability, you might look into Tcl, or if you're into Scheme, check out SIOD or Guile. I would suggest Lua or Python in general, of course, but your question precludes them.
Since noone seems to know a combination better than lua/luajit, I think I will leave it at that. Thanks for everyone's input on this. I personally find lua to be very lacking as a high-level language for game-programming, but it's probably the best choice out there. So to whomever finds this question and has the same requirements(fast, easy to use, easy to embed), you'll either have to use lua/luajit or make your own. :)
Is it at all practical to implement an object model in functional style?
One problem that OOP seems to excel at is describing object models.
For instance, an HTML DOM is a complicated, stateful beast which interfaces directly with the UI and requires programmability from dynamic languages. OOP features tend to come in useful in a lot of ways:
Member access constraints make interfacing with untrusted code (e.g. javascript) safe
Accessor functions and properties make binding to the UI much more convenient
Not having to pass around the object model all the time makes methods a lot simpler.
The UI side of the story might be a bit moot if you're projecting the model via MVVM, but you're still constantly wrestling with state internally.
I'm working in F# for this project so I could easily resort to OOP, but I'm curious as to how far I can push it before it becomes impractical. Are there maybe design patterns or anything?
This is a bit philosophical to have a "correct" answer but okay I'll bite.
In my opinion the problem comes because you consider FP and OO to be juxtapose, they are not. FP and imperative programming are juxtaposed, i.e. using expressions versus using statements.
Part of the problem is that OO lacks a clear definition, well in my opinion anyway. To support this I'd point to Alan Kay who said “Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.”, yet most language we consider OO i.e. java/C# take more after C++ than smalltalk.
What OO C++/java/C# style does give us is a nice way to organize our code into models, create data contains add properties to them etc. Non of this is practically un-functional and can be used nice with functional programming.
As you point out a lot of C++/java/C# tend to be stateful, but they don’t have to be, both java and C# have fundamental types such as their string classes that are immutable. It’s true java and C# don’t make it easy to create immutable class but with a bit of effort you can do it.
Which brings us to where is immutable appropriates? In my designs usually start of by making everything immutable, since this makes getting things correct easier, and if I see this causing performance problems I start adding some mutability on the critical paths. The one place immutability is never going to work is GUI controls, which generally contain far too much state to be immutable. Having said that you can get quite a long way building GUI using a immutable “combinator” approach then is then interpreted by mutable gui controls. This is more or less what the WebSharper guy’s do: http://www.intellifactory.com/products/wsp/Home.aspx
Another great resource for the FP/OO debate is Brain’s “How does functional programming affect the structure of your code?” (which greatly influenced my thinking about FP/OO): http://lorgonblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/how-does-functional-programming-affect-the-structure-of-your-code/
I've been looking at Haskell lately and it seems like a very nice way to watch programming problems from an alternative point of view - alternative to my usual imperative (I have a strong C++ background) view, at least.
However, all the articles I see seem to deal with the same kinds of programming problems:
Parsers
Compilers
Numeric computation problems
I'd like to give Haskell a try myself, by writing some GUI application. Hence, I'm wondering: does it make sense to write event-driven systems like GUIs in a functional programming language like Haskell? Or is that a problem domain at which imperative languages excel? Unfortunately it still takes quite some time for me to switch my mind to 'functional' mode, so I have a hard time deciding argueing against or in favor of using a functional programming language for an event-driven system.
I'd also be interested in examples of GUI applications (or event-driven systems, in general) which are implemented in Haskell.
Here's a couple of Google keywords for you:
Functional Reactive Programming (FRP), a programming paradigm for, well reactive (aka event-driven) programming in purely functional languages,
Leksah, a Haskell IDE written in Haskell,
Yi, an Emacs-like editor which replaces Lisp with Haskell as the implementation, configuration, customization and scripting language,
Super Monao Bros. (yes, you guessed it, a Jump&Run game)
Frag (First-Person Shooter)
Purely Functional Retrogames is a 4-part series of blog articles about how to write games in a purely functional language, explained using Pacman as the example. (Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.)
xmonad is an X11 window manager written in Haskell.
Also, looking at how the various Haskell GUI Libraries are implemented may give some ideas of how interactive programs are made in Haskell.
Here's an example using epoll to implement an event driven web server: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Simple_Servers
Take a look at this wikibooks article, it's a basic wxHaskell tutorial. In particular see the Events section.
I recommend spending some quality time with Haskell and FP in general before jumping in to develop a fully-fledged application so you can get more familiarized with Haskell, since it's quite different from C++
xmonad is event-driven -- see the main event handling loop, which takes messages from the X server, and dispatches to purely functional code, which in turn renders state out to the screen.
"Functional reactive programming" was already mentioned, but it may seem complicated if you're looking at it for the first time (and if you're looking at some advanced articles, it will look complicated no matter how long have you studied it :-)). However, there are some very nice articles that will help you understand it:
Composing Reactive Animations by Conal Elliott shows a "combinator library" (a common programming style in functional languages) for describing animations. It starts with very simple examples, but shows also more interesting "reactive" bit in the second part.
Yampa Arcade is a more evolved demo of Functional Reactive Programming. It uses some advanced Haskell features (such as Arrows), but is still very readable. Getting it to actually run may be more complicated, but it is an excellent reading.
Haskell School of Expression by Paul Hudak is a book which teaches Haskell using multimedia and graphics (including some animations etc.). It is an excellent reading, but it takes more time as it is an entire book :-).
I find my way to functional programming through F#, which is a bit less "pure" compared to Haskell, but it gives you a full access to .NET libraries, so it is easy to use "real-world" technologies from a functional language. In case you were interested, there are a couple of examples on my blog.
I'm learning a bit of functional programming in Gambit-C Scheme by restricting myself to not using set!. I thought it might be fun to write a little OpenGL game using this environment, which seems to lend itself well to game development.
However, it seems to be difficult to stick to a functional style and avoid global state when using OpenGL and GLUT. I don't think this is a fundamental limitation of game programming, per se, but a callback-based API such as GLUT does not seem to work well with functional programming.
For example, I'm trying to think of the world as a stream of mutating state vectors which is a function of an interleaved list of timestep and user input events. This idea seems to be okay, but it doesn't seem to go easily with asynchronous programming. For instance, I have to register a callback for GLUT's display function, which should somehow be able to access the "current" item in this stream. Meanwhile, there's nothing to drive the stream forward by taking from it.
Ideally, I'd need something that is sort of "outside" GLUT, a main function which somehow depends (perhaps monadically) on the various GLUT functions having been executed at some point. How could such a style of game engine be developed around GLUT, or another way to ask is how could I most successfully isolate GLUT from my engine? Is it possible to have GLUT generate such an interleaved list of events to an outside procedure? How does Haskell handle this, for instance?
You're going to have a very hard time implementing a functional graphics system. Even the Haskell bindings to GLUT use imperative programming, through the IO monad. The closest thing I've heard to what you're trying to do is Functional Reactive Programming, but the libraries aren't ready for prime-time yet and there's a severe lack of real-world tutorials for it.
You could look at the FieldTrip library for some ideas on functional graphics.
It's pretty fundemental to a state machine like openGL that it has state!
I don't see how you can have side-effect free functional programming when the side effect is drawing a collection of stuff to the screen.
Having written this question made me think about it a little, and I'm starting to wonder if the answer lies in exploiting co-routines. If the game is a functional co-routine which is triggered by GLUT idle and display calls, this would very nicely separate the game logic from GLUT's architecture. For example, it's very likely that set! cannot be avoided, but if the GLUT callbacks used set! only to modify the stream which is being fed into a co-routine, this might create a very nice boundary. Any thoughts on this? I'll have to get more experience with co-routines before knowing more..