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My friend and I are building a website together, and he is insistent that page refreshes are a thing of the past and that we should build the whole website in AJAX. His only reason why page refreshes are 'annoying' is that they are too slow.
However, the page is running fine without AJAX currently and when I click from page to page, it seems instantaneous to me. It doesn't seem that it would benefit from additional speed, but he just says I'm being stubborn.
I do want to use AJAX for certain features and pages within the site. I feel like I understand the pros and cons. He references that gmail is made in AJAX, but the url changes as I go into different mailboxes, so I don't think it is 100% AJAX.
I reference wikipedia, which is actually much more similar to our site, as an example of a highly succesful website which doesn't seem to NEED AJAX. But he says that's just one example, and that I am fixated on on wikipedia.
Some personal rant:
1. When I tell him that AJAX is great, but that most of the internet will still require page refreshes and page links, he thinks I'm crazy.
2. When I tell him that using AJAX when not needed will make the back-button useless, he tells me that I'm obsessed with the back button.
3. I think AJAX is something that can be added later to make functionality smoother on certain features, but that it is OK to build the core of the website without it for now.
What is your opinion on the matter? When is ajax really needed in a website?
Thanks
No, Ajax is not necessary for a website to be great. But it can improve usability if used correctly and not overused.
A site built entirely with Ajax and non-functional with JavaScript disabled is a nightmare. No navigation back/forward. No bookmarking. Not to mention its effects for SEO, that is the site will be invisible to search engines.
The golden rule: build the site in classic fashion then add little elements of Ajax to improve usability now and then.
For certain advanced functions it might be okay to be only available as Ajax, but try to make sure the most of the site is at least accessible in read mode when JavaScript is disabled. StackOverflow is a great example of that approach.
My rule of thumb is - what are you building: a website or a web application?
if its a website, content should just NOT be loaded via ajax. It breaks many assumptions that the end users have about the website. Other problems:
1. SEO
2. back button breaks
3. more work to do on your side to make the website UI consistent
4. placing relevant ads will be more complicated
An excellent example is wikipedia.
If its a webapp, then ajax can really help:
1. you can design better user interaction
2. the user will actually expect the app to behave like a rich app, and not like a website.
3. you can dramatically increase the responsiveness of the app using ajax.
I hope that helps.
Of course, AJAX is not necessary to build a great website. It can, however, improve the user experience in certain situations. It is necessary to carefully study and understand your requirements, the structure of your site, and the navigation your users will undertake.
One important thing to consider, however, is bookmarks. Using AJAX extensively makes it extremely difficult to be able to simply bookmark a certain spot or "state" of your website.
Sorry to not post on topic, but I agree with the answers other posted (AJAX in great if not used too much.) It also DEPENDS on the website, if it's more like a web app where you don't need SEO and bookmarks (like gmail) you can go with full ajax (try GWT), if it's content rich- go with just a little AJAX.
But what I wanted to underline is the relation with your friend: you have to be careful when you start a big website with somebody else. If your fight is too big for such a detail you'll have much more problems later.
Get a website that supports a lot of connections, see how they do things and you might understand where and when ajax is used. Start looking at StackOverflow for instance.
This entire site is serving 16 million
pages a month and we are doing it off
of 2 servers, which are almost
completely unloaded. The Microsoft
stack is a pretty good stack.
Joel Spolsky, StackOverflow.com
Form validation using Ajax is the way to go.
I hate clicking "Submit" only to have the page return in a few seconds saying my password is not strong enough or that user ID is already in use. It should be instantaneous while I'm filling in the fields!
As far as StackOverflow, I think it's great how when I click on "Show additional comments", I see the spinner and then they immediately appear. When I change the sort on the answers by "newest" say, I hate how the page refreshes.
I don't think you need Ajax for a site to be great. That said, more sites that are great make use of Ajax. Good RIAs are awesome.
I dont see a lot of ajax on Digg, ArsTechnica, LifeHacker, and the such. Those are all (subjectively) pretty good sites.
No, you don't need it. It just needs to perform well for what your intended audience needs.
Yeah I think you do need it, having to submit pages is so pre-millenium.
More seriously, if you are presenting data, I really think it improves the user experience if asynchronous calls to server are used and the returned data displayed without the need for a complete page refresh.
I remember the first time I saw it used (years back) I was extremely impressed, awed even.
Anyone got example of dynamic, data driven websites that look great and don't use ajax ?
AJAX is not an absolute NEED for a website application. It does not necessary mean that your page will be faster. A lot more things determine page speed, such as:
client side minifying (css and js)
image compression and sprites
server location
and much, much more
Of course, applying AJAX in some strategic point of your website will be where you will most benefit from it. Use it where there is likely to be a lot of activity from your users. I personally always make my website without any http requests handling at first, and then implement the rest by adding AJAX where there is the much concern.
I think your friend is being a bit too concerned about AJAX. Like everything in life, it always tastes better with moderation.
One potential downside of AJAX, when misused, is that content can't be bookmarked.
Try and follow the rule of thumb, that the user should be able to link to content by copying the URL from the address bar. There are several ways to achieve this, with traditional page loads being one.
AJAX is not a must for any website. But if your website has voting, save as favorite, or add to cart, etc ajax will definitely add value.
Related
We have web applications elgifto.com, roadbrake.com in which we used AJAX at many places, especially to update major portions of a page. All the important functionality of elgifto.com was implemented using AJAX. Now we realize a few issues due to AJAX implementation.
All the content implemented using
AJAX is not available to the SEO
bots and it is hurting the page rank
of our site.
Users will not be able to bookmark
some of the pages as they are always
available through AJAX.
When we want to direct the user from
one page through an anchor link to
another page having AJAX, we find it
difficult.
So now we are thinking of removing AJAX for these pages and use it only for small functionality such as something similar to marking a question as favorite in SO. So before going ahead and removing, we want to know expert's opinion on this. Thanks.
The problem is not "AJAX" per se, but your implementation of it. Just as a for instance, you can fix the 'bookmark' problem like google maps does it: provide a generated link for each state of your webapp.
SEO can befixed by supplying various of these state-links to the crawlers, either organically trough links in your site, or by supplying a list (sitemap).
If you implement 2, you can fix 1 and 3 with those links.
In the end you must figure out if the effort is worth it, and if you are not overusing AJAX ofcourse, but the statements you've made are not set in stone at all.
I'm costantly developing ajax based websites, with no problems for SEO at all. You just have to use it in the best possible way.
For example, I have a website with normal links pointing to normal webpages (PHP pages), this for normal navigation if a user doesn't have JS enabled. But if a user has JS enabled, a script will change the links behavior, only fetching the content of the page needed.
This way you still have phisycal separated webpages with all their content, which will be indexed as normal.
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So I actually saw a full ajax site somewhere (I forget where) and thought it would be something new and fun to try. I used an old site I had built and put it on a new server. With a little bit of jquery and ajax, I was able to make the entire site work on one page load.
My question is, what are some pros and (more likely) cons to this method?
Please note - the site works through a semi clever linking function. Everything works perfectly fine if the user doesn't have javascript enabled, the newly requested page loads like it would on any other website.
More detail -- Say the user loads the homepage of the site, then logs in. When they log in, the login box fades and reappears with user info. Other content on the page loads as necessary upon logging in. If they click a link, lets say "Articles", one column on the homepage slides up and slides back down with the articles. If they click home the articles slide up and the homepage content slides back down. Things like posting comments, viewing profiles, voting on things, etc. are all done through ajax.
Is this a bad method of web design? If so, why?
I am open to all answers/opinions.
IMO, this isn't "bad" or "good". That depends completely on whether or not the website fulfills the requirements. Oftentimes, developers working on AJAX-only sites tend to miss the whole negative SEO impact issue. However, if the site is developed to support progressive enhancement (or graceful degradation depending on your point of view), which it sounds like you have, then you're good. Only things to prepare for are times when the AJAX call can't complete as expected (make sure you're dealing with timeouts, broken links, etc) so the user doesn't get stuck staring at a loading icon. (The kind of stuff you'd have to deal with in any application, really.)
There are plenty of single-page websites out there using heavy JS and AJAX for the UI and they are great. Specifically, I know of portfolio sites for web designers and web app development teams that use this approach. Oftentimes, the app feels a bit like a flash app, but without the need for a special plugin.
"Is this a bad method of web design? If so, why?"
Certainly not. In fact, making web-pages behave more like desktop applications, whilst remaining functional to ALL users, is the holy-grail of web-design.
I say, as long as you consider ALL your users, i.e. mobile/text-only/low bandwidth/small screensizes then you will be fine. Too many developers just do it for their huge 19" screens and 10Mbps, that users to get left behind through almost no fault of their own.
It depends on the user
This relates closely to UX, IMHO, though of course it's on-topic for programming solutions.
All-AJAX is often called "managing state" 12 years after this Question was asked.
From my experience in:
Creating a platform for API plugins
Creating two of my own CMS web apps for different purposes
Managing many different WordPress.org sites for different purposes
Managing my own cloud servers for both PHP-AJAX and Node.js doing these calls
...it depends on what is most efficient for users.
Consider these scenarios:
Will users be clicking around this website all day long or for at least an hour adjusting many different options and <form> inputs?
Or will many users visit briefly to perform just a handful of quick tasks?
State-managed / all-AJAX is by far best for scenario 1, with Facebook and Gmail as prime examples.
Whole-page loads are more efficient for scenario 2, like blogs, especially with pages linked directly from search results. That might apply to webstores like Amazon, maybe, where users search Google to find one or two products, then leave.
Philosophically, I've heard that the difference is about the number of users and traffic, but I don't quite agree. It's more about how much clicking and <form> sending the primary target user will be doing.
I'm still pretty new to AJAX and javascript, but I'm getting there slowly.
I have a web-based application that relies heavily on mySQL and there are individual user accounts that are accessed and the UI is populated with user specific data.
I'm working on getting rid of a tabbed navigation bar that currently loads new pages because all that changes from page to page is information within one box.
The thing is that box needs to reload info from the database, etc.
I have had great help from users here showing that I need to call the database within the php page that ajax is calling.
OK-so pardon the lengthy intro-what I'm wondering is are there any specific limitations to what ajax can call that I need to know about? IE: someone mentioned that it's best not to call script files and that I should remove scripts from the php page that is being called and keep those in the 'parent' page. Any other things like this I need to keep in mind?
To clarify: I'm not looking to discuss the merits/drawbacks of the technology. I'm wondering about specific coding implementation that I need to be aware of (for example-I didn't until yesterday realize that if even if I had established a mySQL connection on the page, that I would need to re establish that connection in my called page as well...makes perfect sense now).
XMLHttpRequest which powers ajax has a number of limitations. I recommend brushing up on the same origin policy. This is a pivotal rule because it limits where AJAX calls can be made.
First, you can't have Javascript embedded in the HTTP response to an AJAX call. That's a security issue.
No mention of the dynamics of the database, but if the data to be displayed in tabs doesn't have to be real-time, why not cache it server-side?
I find that like any other protocol, Ajax works best in tightly controlled conditions. It wouldn't make much sense for updating nearly the whole page, unless you find that the user experience is improved with an on-page 'loader'. Without going into workarounds, disadvantages will include losing the browser back button / history, issues such as the one your friend mentioned, and also embedded resources and other rich content can suffer as well, and just having an extra layer of complexity to deal with in your app. Don't treat it as magic sauce for your app - make sure every use delivers specific results that benefit your client / audience.
IMHO, it's best to put your client side javascript in a separate page and then import it - neater container. one thing I've faced before is how to call xml back which contains code to run such as more javascript - it's worth checking if this is likely earlier on and avoiding, than having to look at evals.
Mildly interesting.
i am planing to start a full ajax site project, and i was wondering about SEO.
The site will have urls like www.mysite.gr/#/category1 etc
Can Google crawl the site.
Is something that i have to noticed about full ajax and SEO
Any reading suggestions are welcome
Thanks
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/768233/do-hashes-in-urls-affect-seo
You might want to read about so called progressive enhancement.
Google supports indexing of AJAX sites, but unfortunately it involves extra work for the developer. See http://code.google.com/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
I don't think Google is capable of doing so (yet)
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/10/proposal-for-making-ajax-crawlable.html
However you can of course make your site usable with or without JavaScript. That way, browsers will have the full candy stuff and Google (and text browsers) still can navigation your site.
In addition to SEO, you also need to think about usability standards here. A site that is that reliant on AJAX isn't going to work for things like screen-readers as well as spiders. You need a system for graceful degreadation. A website that can't function without JavaScript isn't really a functioning website.
The search engines will spider the initial page load - what happens to the page (with ajax) after that is irrelevant to listings.
Google itself doesn't crawl ajax content but advice a mechanism for it. For this you first need to change # to #!
Whole process to SEO AJAX content is explained here along with simple asp.net code to start working on it.
Imagine having to hit the “refresh” button in your browser to update your Twitter feed rather than just hitting the button on the page itself and having it instantly update? These are the types of problems that AJAX solves, although it does come with its pitfalls. Google might claim it’s able to crawl and parse AJAX websites, yet it’s risky to just take its word for it and leave your website’s organic traffic up to chance. Even though Google can usually index dynamic AJAX content, it’s not always that simple. This guide covers some of the things that can go wrong and how you can make sure your AJAX website is crawlable: https://prerender.io/ajax-seo/
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX, I get a fairly good grasp of what AJAX is. However, it looks like in order to learn it, I'd have to delve into multiple technologies at the same time to get any benefit out of it. So two questions:
What are resources that can help me understand/use AJAX?
What sort of website would benefit from AJAX?
If you aren't interested in the nitty gritty, you could use a higher-level library like JQuery or Prototype to create the underlying Javascript for you. The main benefit is a vastly more responsive user interface for web-based applications.
There are many libraries out there that can help you get benefit out of AJAX without learning about implementing callbacks, etc.
Are you using .NET? Look at http://ajax.asp.net. If you're not, then take a look at tools like qcodo for PHP, and learn about prototype.js, jquery, etc.
As far as websites that would benefit: Every web application ever. :) Anything you interact with by exchanging information, not just by clicking a link and reading an article.
Every website can benefit from AJAX, but in my opinion the biggest benefit to AJAX comes in data entry sections - forms basically. I have done entire sites where the front end - the part the user sees had almost no AJAX functionality in it. All the AJAX stuff was in the administration control panel for assisting in (correct!) data entry.
There is nothing worse than submitting a form and getting back an error, using AJAX you can pretty much prevent this for everything but file uploads.
I find it easiest to just stay away from all the frameworks and other helpers and just do basic Javascript. This not only lets you understand what's going on under the covers, it also lets you do it in the simplest way possible. There's really not much to it. User the JS XML DOM objects to create an xml document client side. Sent it to the server with XMLHTTPRequest, and then process the result, again using the JS XML DOM objects. Start with something simple. Just try sending one piece of information to the server, and getting a small piece of information back.
The Mozilla documentation is good. Sites that benefit from it the most are ones that behave almost like a desktop application and need high interactivity. You can usually improve usability on almost any site by using it, however.
Ajax should be thought of as a means to alter some content on a page without reloading the entire page.
So when do you need to do this? Really only when you have some user interactions or form information that you want to keep intact while you change some content on the page.