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What do you lose in practice when you choose a statically-typed language such as Scala (or F#, Haskell, C#) instead of dynamically-typed ones like Ruby, Python, Clojure, Groovy (which have macros or runtime metaprogramming capabilities)? Please consider best statically-typed languages and best (in your opinion) dynamically-typed languages, not the worst ones.
Answers Summary:
Key advantages of dynamic languages like Ruby over statically-typed language like Scala IMHO are:
Quick edit-run cycle (does JavaRebel reduces the gap?)
Currently community of Scala/Lift is much smaller then of Ruby/Rails or Python/Django
Possible to modify type definitions (though motivation or need for that is not very clear)
In principle, you give up being able to ignore what type you're using when it is not clear (in the static context) what the right thing to do is, and that's about it.
Since complex type-checking can be rather time-consuming, you also probably are forced to give up fast on-line metaprogramming.
In practice, with Scala, you give up very little else--and nothing that I particularly care about. You can't inject new methods, but you can compile and run new code. You do have to specify types in function arguments (and the return type with recursive functions), which is slightly annoying if you never make type errors yourself. Since it compiles each command, the Scala REPL isn't as snappy as e.g. the Python shell. And since it uses Java reflection mechanisms, you don't have quite the ease of online inspection that you do with e.g. Python (not without building your own inspection library, anyway).
The choice of which static or dynamic language is more significant than the static/dynamic choice itself. Some dynamic languages have good performance and good tools. Some static languages can be concise, expressive, and incremental. Some languages have few of these qualities, but do have large libraries of proven code.
Dynamic languages tend to have much more flexible type systems. For example, Python lets you inject a new method into an existing classes, or even into a single object.
Many (not all) static languages lack the facility to construct complex literals. For instance, languages like C# and Java cannot easily mimic the following JavaScript { 'request':{'type':'GET', 'path':mypath}, 'oncomplete':function(response) { alert(response.result) } }.
Dynamic languages have very fluid semantics. Python allows import statements, function definitions and class definitions to appear inside functions and if statements.
eval is a staple of most dynamic languages and few static languages.
Higher order programming is easier (in my subjective opinion) in dynamic languages than static languages, due to the awkwardness of having to fully specify the types of function parameters.
This is particulary so with recursive HOP constructs where the type system can really get in the way.
Dynamic language users don't have to deal with covariance and contravariance.
Generic programming comes practically free in dynamic languages.
I'm not sure if you lose anything but simplicity. Static type systems are an additional burden to learn.
I suppose you usually also lose eval, but I never use it, even in dynamic languages.
I find the issue is much more about everything else when it comes to choosing which language to use for a given task. Tooling, culture, libraries are all much more interesting than typing when it comes to solving a problem with a language.
Programming language research, on the other hand, is completely different. :)
Some criticism of Scala has been expressed by Steve Yegge here and here, and by Guido van Rossum, who mainly attacked Scala's type system complexity. They clearly aren't "Scala programmers" though. On the other hand, here's some praise from James Strachan.
My 2 cents...
IMO (strong) statically-typed languages might reduce the amount of necessary testing code, because some of that work will be done by the compiler. On the other hand, if the compiling step is relatively long, it makes it more difficult to do "incremental-style" programming, which in the real life might result in error-prone code that was only tested to pass the compiler.
On the other hand, dynamically-typed languages feel like there is less threshold to change things, that might reduce the responding time from the point of bug-fixing and improvement, and as a result might provide a smoother curve during application development: handling constant flow of small changes is easier/less risky than handling changes which are coming in bug chunks.
For example, for the project where the design is very unclear and is supposed to change often, it might have been easier to use dynamic language than a static one, if it helps reduce interdependencies between different parts. (I don't insist on that one though:) )
I think Scala sits somewhere in between (e.g. you don't have to explicitly specify types of the variables, which might ease up code maintenance in comparison with e.g. C++, but if you end up with the wrong assumption about types, the compiler will remind about it, unlike in PHP where you can write whatever and if you don't have good tests covering the functionality, you are doomed to find it out when everything is live and bleeding). Might be terribly wrong of course :)
In my opinion, the difference between the static and dynamic typing comes down to the style of coding. Although there is structural types in Scala, most of the time the programmer is thinking in terms of the type of the object including cool gadgets like trait. On the other hand, I think Python/Javascript/Ruby programmers think in terms of prototype of the object (list of methods and properties), which is slightly different from types.
For example, suppose there's a family of classes called Vehicle whose subclasses include Plane, Train, and Automobile; and another family of classes called Animal whose subclasses include Cat, Dog, and Horse. A Scala programmer would probably create a trait called Transportation or something which has
def ride: SomeResult
def ride(rider: Someone): SomeResult
as a member, so she can handle both Train and Horse as a means of transportation. A Python programmer would just pass the train object without additional code. At the run time the language figures out that the object supports ride.
The fact that the method invocations are resolved at the runtime allows languages like Python and Ruby to have libraries that redefines the meaning of properties or methods. A good example of that is O/R mapping or XML data binding, in which undefined property name is interpreted to be the field name in a table/XML type. I think this is what people mean by "flexibility."
In my very limited experience of using dynamic languages, I think it's faster coding in them as long as you don't make mistakes. And probably as you or your coworkers get good at coding in dynamic language, they would make less mistakes or start writing more unit tests (good luck). In my limited experience, it took me very long to find simple errors in dynamic languages that Scala can catch in a second. Also having all types at compile time makes refactoring easier.
I have recently been looking around to learn a new language during my spare time and Scala seems to be very attractive.
I have a few questions regarding it:
Will not knowing Java impose a
challange in learning it? Will it be
a big disadvantage
later on? ( i.e How often do people rely on
Java-specific libraries? )
How big of a difference it is
compared to Ruby? (Apart from being
statically typed) Does it introduce
a lot of new terms, or will I be
familiar with most of the language's
mechanisms?
What resources would you recommend?
I have my eye on Programming Scala
and Beginning Scala books
Although subjective, is Scala fun to programme in? : P
Thanks
There are many concepts that are shared between Ruby and Scala. It's been a while since I've coded Ruby, so this isn't exhaustive.
Ruby <==> Scala (Approximately!)
Mixins <==> Traits
Monkey Patching <==> Pimp My Library (Implicit Conversions to a wrapper with extra methods)
Proc/Closure <==> Function/Function Literal
Duck Typing <==> Structural Types
Last Argument as a Proc <==> Curried Parameter List (see Traversable#flatMap)
Enumerable <==> Traversable
collect <==> map
inject <==> foldLeft/foldRight
Symbol.toProc <==> Placeholder syntactic sugar: people.map(_.name)
Dynamic Typing conciseness <==> Type Inference
Nil <==> null, although Option is preferable. (Not Nil, which is an empty list!)
Everything is an expression <==> ditto
symbols/hashes as arguments <==> Named and Default Parameters
Singleton <==> object Foo {}
Everthing is an object <==> Everthing is a type or an object (including functions)
No Primitives <==> Unified type system, Any is supertype for primitives and objects.
Everything is a message <==> Operators are just method calls
Ruby's Features you might miss
method_missing
define_method etc
Scala Features you should learn
Pattern Matching
Immutable Classes, in particular Case Classes
Implicit Views and Implicit Parameters
Types, Types, and more Types: Generics, Variance, Abstract Type Members
Unification of Objects and Functions, special meaning of apply and update methods.
Here is my take on it:
Never mind not knowing Java.
Scala relies a lot on Java libraries. That doesn't matter at all. You might have trouble reading some examples, sure, but not enough to be a hindrance. With little time, you won't even notice the difference between reading a Java API doc and a Scala API doc (well, except for the completely different style of the newest scaladoc).
Familiarity with the JVM environment, however, is often assumed. If I can make one advise here, it is to avoid Maven at first, and use SBT as a build tool. It will be unnecessary for small programs, but it will make much of the kinks in the Java-lang world easier to deal with. As soon as you want an external library, get to know SBT. With it, you won't have to deal with any XML: you write your build rules in Scala itself.
You may find it hard to get the type concepts and terms. Scala not only is statically typed, but it has one of the most powerful type systems on non-academic languages out there. I'm betting this will be the source of most difficulty for you. Other concepts have different terminology, but you'll quickly draw parallels with Ruby.
This is not that big of a hurdle, though -- you can overcome it if you want to. The major downside is that you'll probably feel any other statically typed language you learn afterwards to be clumsy and limited.
You didn't mention which Programming Scala you had your eyes on. There are two, plus one Programming in Scala. That latter one was written, among others, by the language creator, and is widely considered to be an excellent book, though, perhaps, a bit slow. One of the Programming Scala was written by a Twitter guy -- Alex Payne -- and by ex-Object Mentor's Dean Wampler. It's a very good book too. Beginning Scala was written by Lift's creator, David Pollack, and people have said good things about it to. I haven't heard anyone complain about any of the Scala books, in fact.
One of these books would certainly be helpful. Also, support on Stack Overflow for Scala questions is pretty good -- I do my best to ensure so! :-) There's the scala-users mailing list, where one can get answers too (as long as people aren't very busy), and there's the #scala IRC channel on Freenode, where you'll get good support as well. Sometimes people are just not around, but, if they are, they'll help you.
Finally, there are blogs. The best one for beginners is probably Daily Scala. You can find many, many others are Planet Scala. Among them, my own Algorithmically Challenged, which isn't getting much love of late, but I'll get back to it. :-)
Scala has restored fun in programming for me. Of course, I was doing Java, which is booooring, imho. One reason I spend so much time answering Stack Overflow questions, is that I enjoy working out solutions for the questions asked.
I'm going to introduce a note of caution about how much Java knowledge is required because I disagree that it isn't an issue at all. There are things about Java that are directly relevant to scala and which you should understand.
The Java Memory Model and what mechanisms the platform provides for concurrency. I'm talking about synchronization, threads etc
The difference between primitive types (double, float etc) and reference types (i.e. subclasses of Object). Scala provides some nice mechanisms to hide this from the developer but it is very important, if writing code which must be performant, to know how these work
This goes both ways: the Java runtime provides features that (I suspect, although I may be wrong) are not available in Ruby and will be of enormous benefit to you:
Management Extensions (MBeans)
JConsole (for runtime monitoring of memory, CPU, debugging concurrency problems)
JVisualVM (for runtime instrumentation of code to debug memory and performance problems)
These points #1 and #2 are not insurmountable obstacles and I think that the other similarities mentioned here will work strongly in your favour. Oh, and Scala is most certainly a lot of fun!
I do not have a Ruby background but nevertheless, I might be able to help you out.
I don't thing not knowing Java is a disadvantage, but it might help. In my opinion, Java libraries are used relatively often, but even a trained Java coder don't know them all, so no disadvantage here. You will learn some parts of the Java library by learning Scala because even the Scala libraries use them.
--
I started out by reading Programming Scala and turned over to read the source of the Scala library. The latter helped a lot to understand the language. And as always: Code, Code, Code. Reading without coding wont get you anywhere, but I'm sure you know that already. :-)
Another helpful resources are blogs, see https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1445003/what-scala-blogs-do-you-regularly-follow for a compilation of good Scala blogs.
It is! As you stated, this is very subjective. But for me, coming from a Java background, It is a lot of fun.
This is very late, but I agree to some extent with what oxbow_lakes said. I have recently transitioned from Python to Scala, and knowing how Java works -- especially Java limitations regarding generic types -- has helped me understand certain aspects of Scala.
Most noticeably:
Java has a horribly broken misfeature known as "type erasure". This brokenness is unfortunately present in the JVM as well. This particularly affects programming with generic types -- an issue that simply doesn't come up at all in dynamically-typed languages like Ruby and Python but is very big in statically typed languages. Scala does about as good a job as it can working around this, but the magnitude of the breakage means that some of it inevitably bleeds through into Scala. In addition, some of the fixes in Scala for this issue (e.g. manifests) are recent and hackish, and really require an understanding of what's going in underneath. Note that this problem will probably not affect your understanding of Scala at first, but you'll run up against it when you start writing real programs that use generic types, as there are things you'll try to do that just won't work, and you won't know why unless/until you understand the limitations forced by type erasure.
Sooner or later you'll also run up against issues related to another Java misfeature, which is the division of types into objects (classes) vs. primitive types (ints, floats, booleans) -- and in particular, the fact that primitive types aren't part of the object system. Scala actually does an awesome job hiding this from you, but it can be helpful to know about what Java is doing in certain corner cases that otherwise may be tricky -- particularly involving generic types, largely because of the type-erasure brokenness described in #1. (Type erasure also results in a major performance hit when using arrays, hash tables, and similar generic types over primitives; this is one area where knowing Java will help a lot.)
Misfeature #3 -- arrays are also handled specially and non-orthogonally in Java. Scala's hiding of this is not quite as seamless as for primitives, but much better than for type erasure. The hiding mechanism sometimes gets exposed (e.g. the ArrayWrapper type), which may occasionally lead to issues -- but the biggest problem in practice, not surprisingly, is again with generic types.
Scala class parameters and the way that Scala handles class constructors. In this case, Java isn't broken. Arguably, Scala isn't either, but the way it handles class constructors is rather unusual, and in practice I've had a hard time understanding it. I've only really been able to make sense of Scala's behavior by figuring out how the relevant Scala code gets translated into Java (or more correctly, into compiled Java), and then reasoning over what Java would do. Since I assume that Ruby works much like Java in this respect, I don't think you'll run into too many problems, although you might have to do the same mental conversion.
I/O. This is actually a library issue rather than a language issue. In most cases, Scala provides its own libraries, but Scala doesn't really have an I/O library, so you pretty much have no choice but to use Java's I/O library directly. For a Python or Ruby programmer, this transition is a bit painful, since Java's I/O library is big and bulky, and not terribly easy to use for doing simple tasks, e.g. iterating over all the lines in a file.
Note that besides I/O, you also need to use Java libraries directly for other cases where you interact with the OS or related tasks, e.g. working with times and dates or getting environment variables, but usually this isn't too hard to figure out. The other main Java libraries you might need to use are
Subprocess invocation, also somewhat big and bulky
Networking -- but this is always somewhat painful
Reflection, i.e. dynamically examining the methods and/or fields on a class, or dynamically invoking a method by name when the name isn't known at compile time. This is somewhat esoteric stuff that most people don't need to deal with. Apparently Scala 2.10 will have its own reflection library, but currently you have to use the Java reflection API's, which means you need to know a fair amount about how Scala gets converted to Java. (Thankfully, there's a -print option to the Scala compiler to show exactly how this conversion happens.)
Re. point 1. Not being familiar with Java the language is not necessarily a problem. 3rd party libraries integrate largely seamlessly into Scala. However some awareness of the differences in collections may be good (e.g. a Scala list is not a traditional Java list, and APIs may expect the latter).
The Java-related skills that carry over are related to Java the platform. i.e. you're still working with a JVM that performs class-loading, garbage collection, JIT compilation etc. So experience in this is useful. But not at all necessary.
Note that Scala 2.8 is imminent, and there are some incompatible changes wrt. 2.7. So any book etc. you buy should be aware of such differences.
This is another late answer, having recently come to Scala myself, but I can answer 1, 3, and 4:
1) I ported a large, multifaceted F# project to Scala without any use of either Java or .NET libraries. So for many projects, one can stick totally to native Scala. Java ecosystem knowledge would be a plus, but it can be acquired gradually during and after learning Scala.
3) Programming in Scala is not only great for learning Scala, it's one of the few truly readable computer books on any language. And it's handy for later reference.
4) I've used close to a dozen different programming languages, from assembly languages to Prolog, but Scala and F# are the two most fun programming languages I've ever used -- by a wide margin. (Scala and F# are very similar, an example of "convergent evolution" in two different ecosystems -- JVM and .NET.)
-Neil
I'm building a simple Ruby on Rails plugin and I'm considering using the Set class. I don't see the Set class used all too often in other people's code.
Is there a reason why people choose to use (subclasses of) Array rather than a set? Would using a set introduce dependecy problems for some people?
Set is part of the standard library, so it shouldn't pose any dependency problems. If it's the cleanest way to solve the problem, go for it.
Regarding use (or lack thereof) I think there are probably two main reasons:
programmers not being aware of the library
programmers not realising when sets are the best way to a solution
programmers not knowing/remembering anythign about sets at all.
Make that three main reasons.
Ruby arrays are very flexible anyway, there are plenty of methods that allow to threat It like a set, a stack or a queue for example.
The way I've understood it from what I've read here is that Set's are likely mathematical sets, ie. order doesn't matter and isn't preserved.
In most programming applications, unless you're doing maths, it have limited use, because normally you want to preserve order.
if i like Ruby a lot, is there a reason I should learn another language now, such as Lua or Erlang?
New programming languages, much like spoken languages, can open up new perspectives. Learning new languages -- especially ones rather different from what you're used to (and Erlang will probably fit that bill) -- can teach you a lot of different things you didn't even know you didn't know about programming. So yes, I think you absolutely should, even if you just learn enough to tinker with it and get a feel for the new language.
Learning a functional language in particular can be extremely beneficial. Becoming familiar with the functional style of programming is a surefire step toward becoming a better programmer. Lisp (or its derivatives) in particular is a good language to study. Here's a list of past thread on SO that might offer you some insight along these lines:
Why do people think functional programming will catch on?
What’s a good Functional language to learn?
Benefits of learning scheme?
Leaving aside the (excellent) general reasons to want to learn another language, if you like Ruby a lot you might want to
Learn Smalltalk, which is a language very, very similar to Ruby but in purer form.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that is based on algebraic data types and functions rather than objects and methods, and something with a static type system rather than a dynamic type system—but something that, like Ruby, will support powerful methods of program composition and generic programming. Good candidates would include Standard ML and Haskell.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that makes you control every bit, address, and word in memory—something that forces you to understand and take control of the hardware. In other words, learn C.
Regarding the other languages you mention,
Lua is small and very elegantly designed and implemented. That may appeal to the Rubyist in you. But unlike Ruby it does not impose much of a worldview; it is more of a collection of piece parts. I would suggest you're more likely to appreciate and enjoy Lua after you've worked in three or four other languages first.
Erlang is interesting, but I have a gut feel it's either too different (purely functional, distributed) or not different enough (dynamic type system). But if it appeals to you, go for it.
On the other hand, there's something to be said for really knowing a language well. You'll be able to do a lot more with in-depth knowledge of a single language than you will with surface knowledge of a dozen.
If you like Ruby a lot you should definitely learn another language... one without sigils if possible.
Seems to me that a professional learns the tools he needs to use. Frameworks, containers, languages, all are fair game. I started out in Pascal, went to C and then C++. Then converted to Java. These days its mostly Java with a lot of Javascript and some PHP. Easy enough right? Well, I also need to learn Bash scripting and Perl. Never mind all the other crap I need to get on top of (if you say you understand all of web authentication I will call you a liar). There's a lot of stuff out there. Jump in. Be willing to try different things.
I always enjoy learning new languages for the mere challenge of it. It keeps my brain fit. I've also found it makes for good job interview fodder to be able to say "I'm flexible. I'm adaptable to whatever your needs may be in the future. And I can prove it with my long list of languages."
My main language is PHP. I am a script language fan, nevertheless I have dived into C#, Java, Python, Ruby and even OO JavaScript books to find new mechanisms, ways of thinking. I have found pretty many stunts in Java for example, that I could implement in my all day work. So learning or just studying new languages can widen your perspective.
Dynamic languages are on the rise and there are plenty of them: e.g. Ruby, Groovy, Jython, Scala (static, but has the look and feel of a dynamic language) etc etc.
My background is in Java SE and EE programming and I want to extend my knowledge into one of these dynamic languages to be better prepared for the future.
But which dynamic language should I focus on learning and why? Which of these will be the preferred language in the near future?
Learning Ruby or Python (and Scala to a lesser extent) means you'll have very transferrable skills - you could use the Java version, the native version or the .NET version (IronRuby/IronPython). Groovy is nice but JVM-specific.
Being "better prepared for the future" is tricky unless you envisage specific scenarios. What kind of thing do you want to work on? Do you have a project which you could usefully implement in a dynamic language? Is it small enough to try on a couple of them, to get a feeling of how they differ?
Scala is not a dynamic language at all. Type inference doesn't mean that its untyped. However, Its a very nice language that has nice mixture of OOPs and functional programming. The only problem is some gotchas that you encounter along the way.
Since you are already an experienced Java programmer, it will fit nicely into your skillset. Now, if you want to go all the way dynamic both Ruby or Python are awesome languages. There is demand for both the languages.
I would personally recommend Clojure. Clojure is an awesome new language that is going in popularity faster than anything I've ever seen. Clojure is a powerful, simple, and fast Lisp implemented on the JVM. It has access to all Java libraries of course, just like Scala. It has a book written about it already, it's matured to version 1.0, and it has three IDE plugins in development, with all three very usable.
I would take a look at Scala. Why ?
it's a JVM language, so you can leverage off your current Java skills
it now has a lot of tooling/IDE support (e.g. Intellij will handle Scala projects)
it has a functional aspect to it. Functional languages seem to be getting a lot of traction at the moment, and I think it's a paradigm worth learning for the future
My (entirely subjective) view is that Scala seems to be getting a lot of the attention that Groovy got a year or two ago. I'm not trying to be contentious here, or suggest that makes it a better language, but it seems to be the new JVM language de jour.
As an aside, a language that has some dynamic attributes is Microsoft's F#. I'm currently looking at this (and ignoring my own advice re. points 1 and 2 above!). It's a functional language with objects, built on .Net, and is picking up a lot of attention at the moment.
In the game industry Lua, if you're an Adobe based designer Lua is also good, if you're an embedded programmer Lua is practically the only light-weight solution, but if you are looking into Web development and General tool scripting Python would be more practical
I found Groovy to be a relatively easy jump from an extensive Java background -- it's sort of a more convenient version of Java. It integrates really nicely with existing Java code as well, if you need to do that sort of thing.
I'd recommend Python. It has a huge community and has a mature implementation (along with several promising not-so-mature-just-yet ones). Perl is as far as I've seen loosing a lot of traction compared to the newer languages, presumably due to its "non-intuitiveness" (no, don't get me started on that).
When you've done a project or two in Python, go on to something else to get some broader perspective. If you've done a few non-trivial things in two different dynamic languages, you won't have any problems assimilating any other language.
JScript is quite usefull, and its certainly a dynamic language...
If you want a language with a good number of modules (for almost anything!), go for Perl. With its CPAN, you will always find what you want without reinventing the wheel.
Well keeping in mind your background, i would recommend a language where the semantics are similar to what you are aware of. Hence a language like Scala, Fan, Groovy would be a good starting point.Once you get a hang of the basic semantics of using a functional language(as well as start loving it), you can move onto a language like Ruby. The turn around time for you in this way gets reduced as well as the fact that you can move towards being a polyglot programmer.
i would vote +1 for Groovy (and Grails). You can type with Java style or Groovy still (you can also mix both and have no worry about that). Also you can use Java libs.
As a general rule, avoid dynamically typed languages. The loss of compile time checking and the self-documenting nature of strong, static typing is well worth the necessity of putting type information into your source code. If the extra typing you need to do when writing your code is too great an effort, then a language with type inference (Scala, Haskell) might be of interest.
Having type information makes code much more readable, and readability should be your #1 criteria in coding. It is expensive for a person to read code, anything that inhibits clear, accurate understanding by the reader is a bad thing. In OO languages it is even worse, because you are always making new types. A reader just getting familiar will flounder because they do not know the types that are being passed around and modified. In Groovy, for example, the following is legal def accountHistoryReport(in, out) Reading that, I have no idea what in and out are. When you are looking at 20 different report methods that look just like that, you can quickly go completely homicidal.
If you really think you have to have non-static typing, then a language like Clojure is a good compromise. Lisp-like languages are built on a small set of key abstractions and massive amount of capability on each of the abstractions. So in Clojure, I will create a map (hash) that has the attributes of my object. It is a bit reductionalist, but I will not have to look through the whole code base for the implementation of some un-named class.
My rule of thumb is that I write scripts in dynamic languages, and systems in compiled, statically typed languages.