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First off, I'm aware that there are many questions related to this, but none of them seemed to help my specific situation. In particular, lua and python don't fit my needs as well as I could hope. It may be that no language with my requirements exists, but before coming to that conclusion it'd be nice to hear a few more opinions. :)
As you may have guessed, I need such a language for a game engine I'm trying to create. The purpose of this game engine is to provide a user with the basic tools for building a game, while still giving her the freedom of creating many different types of games.
For this reason, the scripting language should be able to handle game concepts intuitively. Among other things, it should be easy to define a variety of types, sub-type them with slightly different properties, query and modify objects dynamically, and so on.
Furthermore, it should be possible for the game developer to handle every situation they come across in the scripting language. While basic components like the renderer and networking would be implemented in C++, game-specific mechanisms such as rotating a few hundred objects around a planet will be handled in the scripting language. This means that the scripting language has to be insanely fast, 1/10 C speed is probably the minimum.
Then there's the problem of debugging. Information about the function, stack trace and variable states that the error occurred in should be accessible.
Last but not least, this is a project done by a single person. Even if I wanted to, I simply don't have the resources to spend weeks on just the glue code. Integrating the language with my project shouldn't be much harder than integrating lua.
Examining the two suggested languages, lua and python, lua is fast(luajit) and easy to integrate, but its standard debugging facilities seem to be lacking. What's even worse, lua by default has no type-system at all. Of course you can implement that on your own, but the syntax will always be weird and unintuitive.
Python, on the other hand, is very comfortable to use and has a basic class system. However, it's not that easy to integrate, it's paradigm doesn't really involve type-checking and it's definitely not fast enough for more complex games. I'd again like to point out that everything would be done in python. I'm well aware that python would likely be fast enough for 90% of the code.
There's also Scala, which I haven't seen suggested so far. Scala seems to actually fulfill most of the requirements, but embedding the Java VM with C doesn't seem very easy, and it generally seems like java expects you to build your application around java rather than the other way around. I'm also not sure if Scala's functional paradigm would be good for intuitive game-development.
EDIT: Please note that this question isn't about finding a solution at any cost. If there isn't any language better than lua, I will simply compromise and use that(I actually already have the thing linked into my program). I just want to make sure I'm not missing something that'd be more suitable before doing so, seeing as lua is far from the perfect solution for me.
You might consider mono. I only know of one success story for this approach, but it is a big one: C++ engine with mono scripting is the approach taken in Unity.
Try the Ring programming language
http://ring-lang.net
It's general-purpose multi-paradigm scripting language that can be embedded in C/C++ projects, extended using C/C++ code and/or used as standalone language. The supported programming paradigms are Imperative, Procedural, Object-Oriented, Functional, Meta programming, Declarative programming using nested structures, and Natural programming.
The language is simple, trying to be natural, encourage organization and comes with transparent implementation. It comes with compact syntax and a group of features that enable the programmer to create natural interfaces and declarative domain-specific languages in a fraction of time. It is very small, fast and comes with smart garbage collector that puts the memory under the programmer control. It supports many programming paradigms, comes with useful and practical libraries. The language is designed for productivity and developing high quality solutions that can scale.
The compiler + The Virtual Machine are 15,000 lines of C code
Embedding Ring Interpreter in C/C++ Programs
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ring/Lessons/Embedding_Ring_Interpreter_in_C/C%2B%2B_Programs
For embeddability, you might look into Tcl, or if you're into Scheme, check out SIOD or Guile. I would suggest Lua or Python in general, of course, but your question precludes them.
Since noone seems to know a combination better than lua/luajit, I think I will leave it at that. Thanks for everyone's input on this. I personally find lua to be very lacking as a high-level language for game-programming, but it's probably the best choice out there. So to whomever finds this question and has the same requirements(fast, easy to use, easy to embed), you'll either have to use lua/luajit or make your own. :)
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Closed 10 years ago.
I know a lot of Java people have started looking at Scala since it runs on the JVM, and a lot of people in the Microsoft world are looking at F#, but what does Ruby have as a natural functional successor?
In a pure FP sense Ruby doesn't lack anything, instead it has too much some may say. A functional language forces the programmer to not use global variables and other idioms so much (although it is possible to use globals in functional languages)
There's two very different definitions of what "functional programming" means. You can kind-of do the one in Ruby, but you cannot do the other.
Those two definitions are:
programming with first-class functions and
programming with mathematical functions
You can kind-of program with first-class functions in Ruby. It has support for first-class functions. In fact, it has too much support for them: there is Proc.new, proc, lambda, Method, UnboundMethod, blocks, #to_proc and ->() (and probably some others that I forget).
All of these behave slightly differently, have slightly different syntax, slightly different behavior and slightly different restrictions. For example: the only one of these which is syntactically lightweight enough that you can actually use it densely, is blocks. But blocks have some rather severe restrictions: you can only pass one block to a method, blocks aren't objects (which in an object-oriented language in wich "everything is an object" is a very severe restriction) and at least in Ruby 1.8 there are also some restrictions w.r.t parameters.
Referring to a method is another thing that is fairly awkward. In Python or ECMAScript for example, I can just say baz = foo.bar to refer to the bar method of the foo object. In Ruby, foo.bar is a method call, if I want to refer to the bar method of foo, I have to say baz = foo.method(:bar). And if I now want to call that method, I cannot just say baz(), I have to say baz.call or baz[] or (in Ruby 1.9) baz.().
So, first-class functions in Ruby aren't really first-class. They are much better than second-class, and they are good enough™, but they aren't fully first-class.
But generally, Rubyists do not leave Ruby just for first-class functions. Ruby's support is good enough that any advantages you might gain from better support in another language usually is eaten up by the training effort for the new language or by something else that you are accustomed to that you must now give up. Like, say RubyGems or tight Unix integration or Ruby on Rails or syntax or …
However, the second definition of FP is where Ruby falls flat on its face. If you want to do programming with mathematical functions in Ruby, you are in for a world of pain. You cannot use the absolute majority of Ruby libraries, because most of them are stateful, effectful, encourage mutation or are otherwise impure. You cannot use the standard library for the same reasons. You cannot use the core library. You cannot use any of the core datatypes, because they are all mutable. You could just say "I don't care that they are mutable, I will simply not mutate them and always copy them", but the problem is: someone else still can mutate them. Also, because they are mutable, Ruby cannot optimize the copying and the garbage collector isn't tuned for that kind of workload.
It just doesn't work.
There is also a couple of features that have really nothing to do with functional programming but that most functional languages tend to have, that Ruby is missing. Pattern matching, for example. Laziness also was not that easy to achieve before Enumerators were more aggressively used in Ruby 1.9. And there's still some stuff that works with strict Enumerables or Arrays but not with lazy Enumerators, although there's actually no reason for them to require strictness.
And for this definition of FP, it definitely makes sense to leave Ruby behind.
The two main languages that Rubyists have been flocking to, are Erlang and Clojure. These are both relatively good matches for Ruby, because they are both dynamically typed, have a similar REPL culture as Ruby, and (this is more a Rails thing than a Ruby thing) are also very good on the web. They have still pretty small and welcoming communities, the original language creators are still active in the community, there is a strong focus on doing new, exciting and edgy things, all of which are traits that the Ruby community also has.
The interest in Erlang started, when someone showed the original 1993 introduction video "Erlang: The Movie" at RubyConf 2006. A couple of high-profile Rails projects started using Erlang, for example PowerSet and GitHub. Erlang is also easy to master for Rubyists, because it doesn't take purity quite as far as Haskell or Clean. The inside of an actor is pretty pure, but the act of sending messages itself is of course a side-effect. Another thing that makes Erlang easy to grasp, is that Actors and Objects are actually the same thing, when you follow Alan Kay's definition of object-oriented programming.
Clojure has been a recent addition to the Rubyist's toolbelt. Its popularity is I guess mostly driven by the fact that the Ruby community has finally warmed up to the idea that JVM ≠ Java and embraced JRuby and then they started to look around what other interesting stuff there was on the JVM. And again, Clojure is much more pragmatic than both other functional languages like Haskell and other Lisps like Scheme and much simpler and more modern than CommonLisp, so it is a natural fit for Rubyists.
Another cool thing about Clojure is that because both Clojure and Ruby run on the JVM, you can combine them.
The author of "Programming Clojure" (Stuart Halloway) is a (former?) Rubyist, for example, as is Phil Hagelberg, the author of the Leiningen build tool for Clojure.
However, Rubyists are also looking at both Scala (as one of the more pragmatic statically typed FP languages) and Haskell (as one of the more elegant ones). Then there is projects like Scuby and Hubris which are bridges that let you integrate Ruby with Scala and Haskell, respectively. Twitter's decision to move part of their low-level messaging infrastructure first from MySQL to Ruby, then from Ruby to Scala is also pretty widely known.
F# doesn't seem to play any role at all, possibly due to an irrational fear towards all things Microsoft the Ruby community has. (Which, BTW, seems mostly unfounded, given that the F# team has always made versions available for Mono.)
Java people are using a language on the JVM and want a more functional one compatible with their runtime, so they go to Scala.
C# people are using a language on the CLR and want a more functional one compatible with their runtime, so they go to F#.
Ruby people are using a language that's already pretty functional, and they're using it on a number of underlying runtimes (JRuby, IronRuby, MRI, MacRuby, Rubinius, etc...). I don't think it has a natural functional successor, or even needs one.
Any version of Lisp should be fine.
Ruby it self is a kind of Functional programming language, So I don't see any special dialects for FP using ruby.
In hype level, Haskell.
Assuming Ruby people don't just go to the JVM themselves, I think most would adopt Erlang, being another dynamically typed language.
Ruby isn't as functional as say Lisp, but it is just functional enough that you can do some functional programming in a good fun way. (unlike trying to do functional programming in something like C#)
Also, it actually forces you into functional paradigms in some of its syntax, such as the heavy use of blocks and yield. (which I fell in love with after learning Ruby).
I've been looking at Haskell lately and it seems like a very nice way to watch programming problems from an alternative point of view - alternative to my usual imperative (I have a strong C++ background) view, at least.
However, all the articles I see seem to deal with the same kinds of programming problems:
Parsers
Compilers
Numeric computation problems
I'd like to give Haskell a try myself, by writing some GUI application. Hence, I'm wondering: does it make sense to write event-driven systems like GUIs in a functional programming language like Haskell? Or is that a problem domain at which imperative languages excel? Unfortunately it still takes quite some time for me to switch my mind to 'functional' mode, so I have a hard time deciding argueing against or in favor of using a functional programming language for an event-driven system.
I'd also be interested in examples of GUI applications (or event-driven systems, in general) which are implemented in Haskell.
Here's a couple of Google keywords for you:
Functional Reactive Programming (FRP), a programming paradigm for, well reactive (aka event-driven) programming in purely functional languages,
Leksah, a Haskell IDE written in Haskell,
Yi, an Emacs-like editor which replaces Lisp with Haskell as the implementation, configuration, customization and scripting language,
Super Monao Bros. (yes, you guessed it, a Jump&Run game)
Frag (First-Person Shooter)
Purely Functional Retrogames is a 4-part series of blog articles about how to write games in a purely functional language, explained using Pacman as the example. (Part 2, Part 3, Part 4.)
xmonad is an X11 window manager written in Haskell.
Also, looking at how the various Haskell GUI Libraries are implemented may give some ideas of how interactive programs are made in Haskell.
Here's an example using epoll to implement an event driven web server: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Simple_Servers
Take a look at this wikibooks article, it's a basic wxHaskell tutorial. In particular see the Events section.
I recommend spending some quality time with Haskell and FP in general before jumping in to develop a fully-fledged application so you can get more familiarized with Haskell, since it's quite different from C++
xmonad is event-driven -- see the main event handling loop, which takes messages from the X server, and dispatches to purely functional code, which in turn renders state out to the screen.
"Functional reactive programming" was already mentioned, but it may seem complicated if you're looking at it for the first time (and if you're looking at some advanced articles, it will look complicated no matter how long have you studied it :-)). However, there are some very nice articles that will help you understand it:
Composing Reactive Animations by Conal Elliott shows a "combinator library" (a common programming style in functional languages) for describing animations. It starts with very simple examples, but shows also more interesting "reactive" bit in the second part.
Yampa Arcade is a more evolved demo of Functional Reactive Programming. It uses some advanced Haskell features (such as Arrows), but is still very readable. Getting it to actually run may be more complicated, but it is an excellent reading.
Haskell School of Expression by Paul Hudak is a book which teaches Haskell using multimedia and graphics (including some animations etc.). It is an excellent reading, but it takes more time as it is an entire book :-).
I find my way to functional programming through F#, which is a bit less "pure" compared to Haskell, but it gives you a full access to .NET libraries, so it is easy to use "real-world" technologies from a functional language. In case you were interested, there are a couple of examples on my blog.
if i like Ruby a lot, is there a reason I should learn another language now, such as Lua or Erlang?
New programming languages, much like spoken languages, can open up new perspectives. Learning new languages -- especially ones rather different from what you're used to (and Erlang will probably fit that bill) -- can teach you a lot of different things you didn't even know you didn't know about programming. So yes, I think you absolutely should, even if you just learn enough to tinker with it and get a feel for the new language.
Learning a functional language in particular can be extremely beneficial. Becoming familiar with the functional style of programming is a surefire step toward becoming a better programmer. Lisp (or its derivatives) in particular is a good language to study. Here's a list of past thread on SO that might offer you some insight along these lines:
Why do people think functional programming will catch on?
What’s a good Functional language to learn?
Benefits of learning scheme?
Leaving aside the (excellent) general reasons to want to learn another language, if you like Ruby a lot you might want to
Learn Smalltalk, which is a language very, very similar to Ruby but in purer form.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that is based on algebraic data types and functions rather than objects and methods, and something with a static type system rather than a dynamic type system—but something that, like Ruby, will support powerful methods of program composition and generic programming. Good candidates would include Standard ML and Haskell.
Learn a language that is very, very different—say something that makes you control every bit, address, and word in memory—something that forces you to understand and take control of the hardware. In other words, learn C.
Regarding the other languages you mention,
Lua is small and very elegantly designed and implemented. That may appeal to the Rubyist in you. But unlike Ruby it does not impose much of a worldview; it is more of a collection of piece parts. I would suggest you're more likely to appreciate and enjoy Lua after you've worked in three or four other languages first.
Erlang is interesting, but I have a gut feel it's either too different (purely functional, distributed) or not different enough (dynamic type system). But if it appeals to you, go for it.
On the other hand, there's something to be said for really knowing a language well. You'll be able to do a lot more with in-depth knowledge of a single language than you will with surface knowledge of a dozen.
If you like Ruby a lot you should definitely learn another language... one without sigils if possible.
Seems to me that a professional learns the tools he needs to use. Frameworks, containers, languages, all are fair game. I started out in Pascal, went to C and then C++. Then converted to Java. These days its mostly Java with a lot of Javascript and some PHP. Easy enough right? Well, I also need to learn Bash scripting and Perl. Never mind all the other crap I need to get on top of (if you say you understand all of web authentication I will call you a liar). There's a lot of stuff out there. Jump in. Be willing to try different things.
I always enjoy learning new languages for the mere challenge of it. It keeps my brain fit. I've also found it makes for good job interview fodder to be able to say "I'm flexible. I'm adaptable to whatever your needs may be in the future. And I can prove it with my long list of languages."
My main language is PHP. I am a script language fan, nevertheless I have dived into C#, Java, Python, Ruby and even OO JavaScript books to find new mechanisms, ways of thinking. I have found pretty many stunts in Java for example, that I could implement in my all day work. So learning or just studying new languages can widen your perspective.
Dynamic languages are on the rise and there are plenty of them: e.g. Ruby, Groovy, Jython, Scala (static, but has the look and feel of a dynamic language) etc etc.
My background is in Java SE and EE programming and I want to extend my knowledge into one of these dynamic languages to be better prepared for the future.
But which dynamic language should I focus on learning and why? Which of these will be the preferred language in the near future?
Learning Ruby or Python (and Scala to a lesser extent) means you'll have very transferrable skills - you could use the Java version, the native version or the .NET version (IronRuby/IronPython). Groovy is nice but JVM-specific.
Being "better prepared for the future" is tricky unless you envisage specific scenarios. What kind of thing do you want to work on? Do you have a project which you could usefully implement in a dynamic language? Is it small enough to try on a couple of them, to get a feeling of how they differ?
Scala is not a dynamic language at all. Type inference doesn't mean that its untyped. However, Its a very nice language that has nice mixture of OOPs and functional programming. The only problem is some gotchas that you encounter along the way.
Since you are already an experienced Java programmer, it will fit nicely into your skillset. Now, if you want to go all the way dynamic both Ruby or Python are awesome languages. There is demand for both the languages.
I would personally recommend Clojure. Clojure is an awesome new language that is going in popularity faster than anything I've ever seen. Clojure is a powerful, simple, and fast Lisp implemented on the JVM. It has access to all Java libraries of course, just like Scala. It has a book written about it already, it's matured to version 1.0, and it has three IDE plugins in development, with all three very usable.
I would take a look at Scala. Why ?
it's a JVM language, so you can leverage off your current Java skills
it now has a lot of tooling/IDE support (e.g. Intellij will handle Scala projects)
it has a functional aspect to it. Functional languages seem to be getting a lot of traction at the moment, and I think it's a paradigm worth learning for the future
My (entirely subjective) view is that Scala seems to be getting a lot of the attention that Groovy got a year or two ago. I'm not trying to be contentious here, or suggest that makes it a better language, but it seems to be the new JVM language de jour.
As an aside, a language that has some dynamic attributes is Microsoft's F#. I'm currently looking at this (and ignoring my own advice re. points 1 and 2 above!). It's a functional language with objects, built on .Net, and is picking up a lot of attention at the moment.
In the game industry Lua, if you're an Adobe based designer Lua is also good, if you're an embedded programmer Lua is practically the only light-weight solution, but if you are looking into Web development and General tool scripting Python would be more practical
I found Groovy to be a relatively easy jump from an extensive Java background -- it's sort of a more convenient version of Java. It integrates really nicely with existing Java code as well, if you need to do that sort of thing.
I'd recommend Python. It has a huge community and has a mature implementation (along with several promising not-so-mature-just-yet ones). Perl is as far as I've seen loosing a lot of traction compared to the newer languages, presumably due to its "non-intuitiveness" (no, don't get me started on that).
When you've done a project or two in Python, go on to something else to get some broader perspective. If you've done a few non-trivial things in two different dynamic languages, you won't have any problems assimilating any other language.
JScript is quite usefull, and its certainly a dynamic language...
If you want a language with a good number of modules (for almost anything!), go for Perl. With its CPAN, you will always find what you want without reinventing the wheel.
Well keeping in mind your background, i would recommend a language where the semantics are similar to what you are aware of. Hence a language like Scala, Fan, Groovy would be a good starting point.Once you get a hang of the basic semantics of using a functional language(as well as start loving it), you can move onto a language like Ruby. The turn around time for you in this way gets reduced as well as the fact that you can move towards being a polyglot programmer.
i would vote +1 for Groovy (and Grails). You can type with Java style or Groovy still (you can also mix both and have no worry about that). Also you can use Java libs.
As a general rule, avoid dynamically typed languages. The loss of compile time checking and the self-documenting nature of strong, static typing is well worth the necessity of putting type information into your source code. If the extra typing you need to do when writing your code is too great an effort, then a language with type inference (Scala, Haskell) might be of interest.
Having type information makes code much more readable, and readability should be your #1 criteria in coding. It is expensive for a person to read code, anything that inhibits clear, accurate understanding by the reader is a bad thing. In OO languages it is even worse, because you are always making new types. A reader just getting familiar will flounder because they do not know the types that are being passed around and modified. In Groovy, for example, the following is legal def accountHistoryReport(in, out) Reading that, I have no idea what in and out are. When you are looking at 20 different report methods that look just like that, you can quickly go completely homicidal.
If you really think you have to have non-static typing, then a language like Clojure is a good compromise. Lisp-like languages are built on a small set of key abstractions and massive amount of capability on each of the abstractions. So in Clojure, I will create a map (hash) that has the attributes of my object. It is a bit reductionalist, but I will not have to look through the whole code base for the implementation of some un-named class.
My rule of thumb is that I write scripts in dynamic languages, and systems in compiled, statically typed languages.